Pistol Shooting

#1
Gents thanks for the information on Enfield/Mauser.
Now another 'Tale' has surfaced from the Old Nackers association, some of who have been around.
The tale goes like this. You can point 'Naturally' at a target with your Fourth finger (one next to thumb).
The story says that 'Certain special people' are trained to hold their pistol with the Fourth finger pointing along the slide and only two lower fingers around the magazine housing. The trigger is pulled by the Longest 'Middle' finger. The left hand then supports the pistol as firer finds convenient.
Any one know if their is any truth in the above ?
john
 
#2
I don't know about special people, but I have seem some use that method and it worked for them (As opposed to THEM).
 
#4
I just tried holding my PP that way (that's PP as in Walther not..well, never mind..) and the pointed finger lies along the frame and slide line and will amplify the chances of thumb-web catch. It doesn't sit so high on the Browning HP but feels a lot less stable. I guess with practice it works but to me it's less instinctive.
 
#5
I think it was Fairbain the bloke who helped design the comando knife who thought this stile up he was an officer in the Shanghai police and had some pretty extream ideas.one was to weld the safety catch on a Thomson gun in the fire position, I have tried his shooting grip and it does work but it is not a target grip it is meant for use in snap shooting ,gunfight role

He wrote a book "Ready for Anything" i think it was called
 
#7
Thanks Tarten,I was pretty sure I had it almost right trust the septics to steel the glory Applegatewas a bit of a late starter the other two had been at for a 1or 2 years before he turned up
 
#8
I think you will find this is 99.9% myth. I'd be very surprised if a single current professional combat shooter (using handguns anyway) does this.

IIRC it circulated as a hearsay-of-hearsay rumour from time to time during the 80s, but everyone who tried it (I didn't) gave it short shrift.

I could probably dissect why it's likely to be no good as a technique, if anyone's interested, but I suspect it is fairly obvious.

Edited to add: Have read the Google entry, thanks. Still very sceptical!
 
#9
I have a pici of me trying this but i dont know how to put it on the thread
 
#10
The Wiki entry is referring to something different - the sort of "muscle memory" you get after a lot of practice with a particular firearm and with the grip you habitually use. You can "point shoot" with anything that you are very accustomed to: e.g. I had a FAL that I could hit snap targets with, not using the sights at all.

The "Finger alongside" grip appears to be just one of those fads where someone tried to think up something different (probably to sell a practical pistol book...). I have tried it, and its essentially worthless with anything fullbore - the loss of grip completely nullifies any advantage of trying to shoot where your finger is pointed (assuming you have a straight digit in the first place!).
 
#11
4(T) said:
The Wiki entry is referring to something different - the sort of "muscle memory" you get after a lot of practice with a particular firearm and with the grip you habitually use. You can "point shoot" with anything that you are very accustomed to: e.g. I had a FAL that I could hit snap targets with, not using the sights at all.

The "Finger alongside" grip appears to be just one of those fads where someone tried to think up something different (probably to sell a practical pistol book...). I have tried it, and its essentially worthless with anything fullbore - the loss of grip completely nullifies any advantage of trying to shoot where your finger is pointed (assuming you have a straight digit in the first place!).
Look further down the page, it is there.
 
#12
It does not work well with a revolver but i have used it with a few auto's and found it ok Browning HP,and CZ75, but on anything with more poke S&W 745 not much cop.
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
#13
Lost-Jock said:
and the pointed finger lies along the frame and slide line and will amplify the chances of thumb-web catch.
That was my first thought too - not a nice image for lunchtime.
 
#14
Gents thanks for the information on Enfield/Mauser.
Now another 'Tale' has surfaced from the Old Nackers association, some of who have been around.
The tale goes like this. You can point 'Naturally' at a target with your Fourth finger (one next to thumb).
The story says that 'Certain special people' are trained to hold their pistol with the Fourth finger pointing along the slide and only two lower fingers around the magazine housing. The trigger is pulled by the Longest 'Middle' finger. The left hand then supports the pistol as firer finds convenient.
Any one know if their is any truth in the above ?
john
I seem to remember that that's how le Carre describes one of his characters has having been taught to shoot in 'A Perfect Spy'. Which might point to a connection to his time in the 'Diplomatic Service', and fit in with the Fairburn genesis and it being used by 'special people', at one point, anyway.

Somewhere I've got a copy of a late fourties docudrama called 'Now it can be told' where SOE agents (played by ex-SOE agents) are taught something akin to the point shooting mentioned above. If I can dig it out I'll try and see how they're holding their pistols.
 
#15
tropper66 said:
It does not work well with a revolver but i have used it with a few auto's and found it ok Browning HP,and CZ75, but on anything with more poke S&W 745 not much cop.
Do you mind if I ask what "ok" meant? Generally improved accuracy? Or that it seemed to work about as well as you were used to with a traditional grip? In fact, what overall grip were you using - weaver, isosceles, car, or maybe the modified version adopted by some fellas for CQB and room clearance?

I mentioned this to a fellow antique earlier and he laughed and said it was all Jack Ruby's fault, told me to look at the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald being shot – one thing led to another and, Google being my friend, I came across a whole shed load of dicussion of this subject. One example here.

Still didn't see much to recommend the technique unless you're missing an index finger.

Geeks try Googling and be amazed by how much discussion there is on the subject....
 
#16
The likelihood of the index finger applying unwonted lateral pressure to the frame when the middle finger applies pressure to the trigger says it all ... shots all go left, the other bloke walks up and decks you.

It could probably be "trained" through loads of practice, developing a new set of neural pathways in the process. But I really see no point [sorry] at all. The brain/hand processes are well-established, and there's enough trouble getting people to stop applying pressure with the little finger [= shots go low] when the trigger finger automatically starts seeking "assistance" from the rest of the digits ... etc etc.

Blue
GBTSF Pistol Coach [Retd]
 
#17
Didn't Walter Winans mention this in his 1912 (ish) book? Don't have my copy to hand. If not then it Fairbairn and Sykes sound likely.
 
#18
EX_STAB said:
Didn't Walter Winans mention this in his 1912 (ish) book? Don't have my copy to hand. If not then it Fairbairn and Sykes sound likely.
I had heard of it before, but IMO it's one of things which might work for an Uber-Meister but is fundamentally borrocks for 99.9% of the Planet. Spend enough time working with a handgun, and it'll point where you want without introducing weird techniques that the grip/frame was never designed for.

Like a mate who lost his SLR foresight during an ETR shoot, and just "shot-gunned" his way through the Match to reach the next stage.
 
#19
blue-sophist said:
EX_STAB said:
Didn't Walter Winans mention this in his 1912 (ish) book? Don't have my copy to hand. If not then it Fairbairn and Sykes sound likely.
I had heard of it before, but IMO it's one of things which might work for an Uber-Meister but is fundamentally borrocks for 99.9% of the Planet. Spend enough time working with a handgun, and it'll point where you want without introducing weird techniques that the grip/frame was never designed for.

Like a mate who lost his SLR foresight during an ETR shoot, and just "shot-gunned" his way through the Match to reach the next stage.
oh I quite agree, just thought it might have been Winans.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#20
I tried it many years ago, first with a Browning HP issue and then with a PPK in .380. That would bite you regardless of grip so I didnt bother with it. I had a real Vest PP a webly .25 that would shoot the tip of your finger off if you tried it so I didnt!
 

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