Pistol query

#1
I've been researching the fighting which took place at the beginning of April 1945 on the passes through the Teutoburger Forest (specifically the section Augustdorf-Hiddessen-Detmold-Horn).

As part of this I go out with a metal detector to check areas where fighting was reported and use the info to 'reconstruct' the events on paper. One particular area south of Hiddesen has been particularly productive and I'd like to ask whether anyone can identify this pistol. It is part of a buried cache I found some months ago which included a Beretta 1934 Corto dated 1942 and the attached revolver. Along with the pistols were around 100 rounds of 9mm for the revolver plus 6 rounds for the Beretta. Everything had been wrapped in oiled cloth and placed inside a ceramic vase which was then sealed and buried.

The information from gun-related websites that I've seen would seem to suggest that this revolver is Belgian and probably manufactured around 1900. I know that the armoury in Sennelager issued some Belgian weapons to the German troops prior to their hurried deployment into the forest at the end of March 1945 and so my thinking is that this may well be one them. I'd be grateful if someone could put a model name/number to this revolver.
 

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#5
Any marks/numbers/ etc??

Calibre - .45 or smaller?

I would not disagree with Belgium as a source. The style is broadly that normally described as "British Bulldog" though the Belgies were turning pistols out in the hundreds of thousands around the turn of the 20th Centuary, mostly what would be called "saturday night specials" and sold for home/travelling protection.
 
#7
Just seen your last postings...

Hmm Crown and V - could be British - an early Webley perhaps.

Any BNP marks anywhere?

Need to look at my books this evening?

Any ideas Ugly/Seanbean/anyone?
 
#8
The only other marks that I can find are attached. The first picture is of the left side forward of the trigger guard. Same place on the right side is the serial number? 1978.
 

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#10
Out of interest if someone had gone to the trouble of wrapping the pistol in oil cloth and placing it in a vase would this not suggest that it was not used in the fighting as such but as maybe a presited weapons catch for the werewolf resistance? It's in remarkable condition though
 
#11
They Don't look like British proof marks to me. I'd agree that the style is the Belgian made "British Bulldog" type circa 1900. Lanyard ring suggests military or police origin.
 
#12
Nice find!

Are caches like this common?

At fist sight I thought it was British and .455, but thats just me. I'd go with the above statement of it being a British Bulldog
 
#13
I'll never be able to confirm that the weapon was used during the fighting of course but I'm guessing that these weapons may have been found on the ground after the fighting and taken home by someone who subsequently buried them to avoid having to give them up to the authorities - or they were buried by criminals after the war - or, or, or.....

You are right though, whoever buried them fully intended to either recover the weapons himself or had deposited them there for a third-party as great care was taken.
 
#14
EX_STAB said:
They Don't look like British proof marks to me. I'd agree that the style is the Belgian made "British Bulldog" type circa 1900. Lanyard ring suggests military or police origin.
Yes, that is my thinking too. The Beretta particularly was used by the police.
 
#15
Praetorian said:
Nice find!

Are caches like this common?
Thanks :) It was excellent to find them after spending mind-numbing hours poring over maps and reports and then finally being able to start looking on the ground. This is the only cache I've found but weapons (or rather weapon parts) do turn up often. I have found sites where Germans had been disarmed. Usually you find a pile of K98 bolts. These would have been buried by either the americans (in this area) or sometimes by the Germans themselves before giving themselves up. I've actually had to bury caches myself. The last hole I filled contained a Panzerfaust, 6 grenades, 2 rifle grenades, 4 mortar rounds and about 200 rounds of M1 and K98. I leave them buried until there is enough to make it worth calling the local munitions disposal team.
 
#16
Stained_Eligius said:
Praetorian said:
Nice find!

Are caches like this common?
Thanks :) It was excellent to find them after spending mind-numbing hours poring over maps and reports and then finally being able to start looking on the ground. This is the only cache I've found but weapons (or rather weapon parts) do turn up often. I have found sites where Germans had been disarmed. Usually you find a pile of K98 bolts. These would have been buried by either the americans (in this area) or sometimes by the Germans themselves before giving themselves up. I've actually had to bury caches myself. The last hole I filled contained a Panzerfaust, 6 grenades, 2 rifle grenades, 4 mortar rounds and about 200 rounds of M1 and K98. I leave them buried until there is enough to make it worth calling the local munitions disposal team.
I'm not coming round to help in your garden then!
 
#17
There's the memoirs of a US Airborne PoW here;

http://pages.prodigy.net/jabeckpearce/poor_town/eds/isbell07.htm

He comments that, after his liberation, the German civilians had stacked their firearms in the streets. This may have been on an order from interim German government after the surrender, or the occupying forces may have ordered civvy weapons to be handed over.

If I'd been in that situation, with a foreign army of dubious intent about to move in, I think I might have cached any shooters somewhere that I could retrieve them if needed, rather than abandon them. I'd think it was a bit of private enterprise by a local civvy, rather than a military cache.
 
#18
Onetap said:
If I'd been in that situation, with a foreign army of dubious intent about to move in, I think I might have cached any shooters somewhere that I could retrieve them if needed, rather than abandon them. I'd think it was a bit of private enterprise by a local civvy, rather than a military cache.
Yep, I'd agree with that.
 
#19
Image belgian1.jpg Looks very much like a British Proof Mark, with the Imperial Crown. Image belgian6.jpg, on the other hand, shows another Proof Mark with a Crown that certainly isn't British. Could it have been re-proofed after repair, modification or export?

I thought all the Webley Types were top break?
 
#20
I'd have to go check in the books, but is it not a Lebel, a French jobbie?
I think the Germans would have had stacks of captured ones after 1940.
 

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