PIAT

HE117

LE
I remember one of the last exercises at Sandhurst in the early 70s we were given to a regular Inf Bn who filled all the NCO and command positions and took us through advance to contacts. I forget what it was called, but the idea was that we should actually see how infantry work was done in reality rather than the clusterf**ks we usually achieved on our own..

The biggest lesson I took away from it was that we were told to dump almost all of our kit behind the start line (... including helmets!) , and just fill our pockets with magazines and grenades for the assault. The philosophy was that you needed to conserve your energy for when you needed it and that there was no point in lugging anything more than needed during an assault and that speed and agility gave you the greatest chance of survival. It was SOP that the covering group would clear through the position and hold it while the assault group went back and recovered their kit..

Now I admit I know the square root of F all when it comes to these tactics, but I really did despair watching the boys down in Helmand staggering about with all that gear strapped on to them, particularly when the opposition was dancing around with an AK and a dishdash..


.... sorry for the thread swerve btw!
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Now I admit I know the square root of F all when it comes to these tactics, but I really did despair watching the boys down in Helmand staggering about with all that gear strapped on to them, particularly when the opposition was dancing around with an AK and a dishdash..

.... sorry for the thread swerve btw!
Big push to try to Do Something about that with Project PAYNE, with the idea of getting the fighting load on a soldier down to the point where they could actually manoeuvre rather than just fire (coupled to evidence from range trials that hauling that much weight around, dropped the already questionable standard of marksmanship down to the point that cow's ar$es and banjos were rarely coinciding)

All seemed to fizzle out because the habit of "you must carry everything you might need, just in case you need it" was too strong to break...

And the PAYNE presentation is still around, such as here, and does make the point of troops going into action with as little kit as they can manage...
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All seemed to fizzle out because the habit of "you must carry everything you might need, just in case you need it" was too strong to break...
I don't think that's the whole story. It's mostly about risk-aversion in an officer population raised in a time of H&S legislation, and their ingrained fear of dropping a career-limiting bollock leading to counter-productive, even perverse, policy decisions on ops.
 
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See my thread "70s Birds, Not 'Arf" :-D

In the early pages is a link to a long, lingering (if only we'd known it then) film eulogy to a hot summer's afternoon on a West End street when cameramen were not PC, and most young ladies were slender :-D
By chance (?) said video, now on YouTube, has very recently been made available at post #989 on said thread.

Purely in the interests of furthering historical research, of course.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I don't think that's the whole story. It's mostly about risk-aversion in an officer population raised in a time of H&S legislation, and their ingrained fear of dropping a career-limiting bollock leading to counter-productive, even perverse, policy decisions on ops.
That's partly what I had in mind, but wasn't explaining clearly enough - I recall reading an account in "The Infantryman" about 3 Para's experience in the 2003 Majar-al-Kabir battle, where they credited their ability to get out of the town and join up with the QRF with the fact that they were lightly equipped (no helmets or ECBA), which - along with being bloody fit - meant they could avoid being encircled and pinned down, and were able to F&M their way out. Even in 2004, it was written with commentary that "but would be be allowed to make that decision today?"

The problem being, try explaining - at an inquest or in front of Public Interest Ltd's high-minded and unbiased counsel - how you weighed the possibility of losing the entire multiple, against the death or life-changing injuries suffered by a soldier as a direct result of his being ordered not to wear the personal protective equipment that had been available, when the scientific evidence is clear that such PPE would have prevented or mitigated that injury...
 
The problem being, try explaining - at an inquest or in front of Public Interest Ltd's high-minded and unbiased counsel - how you weighed the possibility of losing the entire multiple, against the death or life-changing injuries suffered by a soldier as a direct result of his being ordered not to wear the personal protective equipment that had been available, when the scientific evidence is clear that such PPE would have prevented or mitigated that injury.
It's called risk management: likelihood, severity, magnitude, mitigation - all of that.

FFS in my grandad's time, sneaking up on Jerry in a pair of black slapper gym shoes was considered acceptable mitigation of the otherwise highly likely probability of the entire commando raid being captured and summarily executed.

A latter-day Lord Lovat would, seemingly, be more concerned with the possibility that someone wearing the things might get a sprained ankle.
 
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I don't think that's the whole story. It's mostly about risk-aversion in an officer population raised in a time of H&S legislation, and their ingrained fear of dropping a career-limiting bollock leading to counter-productive, even perverse, policy decisions on ops.
I also suspect it’s because carrying less is seen as the ‘soft’ option.
 
In an effort to get this back to spigots... Look what I just brought:


Pretty good nick as well, some original paint and it still has a tail on it.
I am thinking clean it up, bit of a re-paint, stick a screw thread in the top, so I can attach a 3in mortar fuse, and get a new tail made fabricated and we'll have a pristine 14lbr HE round.
 
As well as the Bombard round that I have coming, these arrived yesterday for work on my book.


Here's the spigot round:


What's really interesting is the tail piece. It extends a huge distance inside the warhead, and seems to have a firing pin built into it. I'm guessing that on impact the fuse is rammed backwards into the firing pin to cause it to trigger.
 

Mr_Relaxed

War Hero
How heavy is it? From the picture, and looking at the 2litre bottle of coke in the background, it doesn't look to be much bigger than the bottle.

From IWM pictures I've seen, the rounds seem to have been carried in a case of 3? How many would typically have been man-ported?
 
How heavy is it? From the picture, and looking at the 2litre bottle of coke in the background, it doesn't look to be much bigger than the bottle.

From IWM pictures I've seen, the rounds seem to have been carried in a case of 3? How many would typically have been man-ported?
I anticipated that question:


Its a pretty hefty lump, with a very thick casing. But keep in mind this isn't a PIAT bomb. This thread over the months has turned into an everything Spigot related thread.
 
She's arrived!



Aint she pretty! Reason why I left the packing on the tail is I started to unwrap it, and all the rust in the world came out. Maybe something to do later out in the garden. Any advise on dealing with the rust would be helpful? I've got a stiff wire brush, should I have a crack at it with that?

@HE117 Yes that's yellow on the top half, as I predicted its filled with concrete, as bombard Prac rounds were yellow. Yes I carried out your instructions to check, and it came back with inert.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
For heavily rusted and potentially fragile steel, the best bet is to attack it with a plastic nail brush and soapy water, dry off and then immediately spray with a light oil.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
For heavily rusted and potentially fragile steel, the best bet is to attack it with a plastic nail brush and soapy water, dry off and then immediately spray with a light oil.
Tried that, there was very limited effect. I did do a small segment with a wire brush, and it seemed to everything a bit khaki in colour.
 

JackSofty

War Hero
A phospor-bronze brush is usually my first plan of attack as it is less harsh than steel.


Sent from my karzi while losing several pounds
 

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