PIAT

As this thread has ranged over most of the Spigot weapons, here's something I've just noticed about the Flying dustbin:


Most of the filler is made up of 808, but there's a collar of Pentolite at the base. Is that so you get the cowpat effect from the 808, and then the Pentolite reinforces the bang?
 

HE117

LE
As this thread has ranged over most of the Spigot weapons, here's something I've just noticed about the Flying dustbin:


Most of the filler is made up of 808, but there's a collar of Pentolite at the base. Is that so you get the cowpat effect from the 808, and then the Pentolite reinforces the bang?
Good Spot! I never noticed that!

Looks a bit strange, as the PETN would normally be used as a booster as it has a higher VofD and smaller critical cross section than 808 (..which is basically gelignite). The booster/exploder end of the fuze is however in the 808 and not the PETN!

It may be, as you said, an effort to provide a tamping effect to the 808.. and looking at it now, that is what I would predict.. or it could just be an expression of Wedge Logic along the lines of P for Plenty!

I will see if I can find any reference to it!
 
Good Spot! I never noticed that!

Looks a bit strange, as the PETN would normally be used as a booster as it has a higher VofD and smaller critical cross section than 808 (..which is basically gelignite). The booster/exploder end of the fuze is however in the 808 and not the PETN!

It may be, as you said, an effort to provide a tamping effect to the 808.. and looking at it now, that is what I would predict.. or it could just be an expression of Wedge Logic along the lines of P for Plenty!

I will see if I can find any reference to it!
Cool Thanks! At the moment I have only the guess that its for more bang. It has been suggested that it was also used to blow up wire and mines.

Here's another one for the group. the 290mm that everyone refers to the Flying dustbin as. Where did that come from? As far as anyone can tell the bomb diameter is 9in, not 290mm,, and anyway spigot calibres are measured by the diameter of the spigot, not the bomb.
 
Good Spot! I never noticed that!

Looks a bit strange, as the PETN would normally be used as a booster as it has a higher VofD and smaller critical cross section than 808 (..which is basically gelignite). The booster/exploder end of the fuze is however in the 808 and not the PETN!

It may be, as you said, an effort to provide a tamping effect to the 808.. and looking at it now, that is what I would predict.. or it could just be an expression of Wedge Logic along the lines of P for Plenty!

I will see if I can find any reference to it!
To that end, what might they mean by ‘driving plate’?
 

HE117

LE

HE117

LE
Could the pentolite be helping with that?
no.. purely mechanical.. The casing is pretty thin and would not take the launching stresses on a single joint.. also having two attachment points means that the bending moment is reduced.

Pentolite is basically PETN in a TNT matrix. It doesn't have much physical strength, something like candle wax.
 
Good Spot! I never noticed that!

Looks a bit strange, as the PETN would normally be used as a booster as it has a higher VofD and smaller critical cross section than 808 (..which is basically gelignite). The booster/exploder end of the fuze is however in the 808 and not the PETN!

It may be, as you said, an effort to provide a tamping effect to the 808.. and looking at it now, that is what I would predict.. or it could just be an expression of Wedge Logic along the lines of P for Plenty!

I will see if I can find any reference to it!
Since the projectile is being driven forward and the explosive being squashed out, the exploder may be pushed back into the pentolite by the time it does very much "banging". So this may be a design intended to resolve a timing issue to ensure the initiation is in the right place at the right time in a very dynamic system.
 
Ok a challenge.

Can anyone find a shred of proof that the PIAT went to Korea?
Australia seems the best bet as 'the web' says that they used PIAT early on in Korea. 3RAR had PIAT in Japan and was the first Aussie infantry Regiment into Korea (I believe) in Sept '50.
However, in August 1950, the 3RAR war diary notes:

_20200217_224015.JPG

So, the Aussies receive training on the operation of alternatives to the PIAT, before embarking for Korea.
In October 1950, 3RAR is in Korea and A/T weapons are used. However, it is the 3.5" that is used:
_20200217_224326.JPG

While not impossible, I don't think the Aussies would be carrying around PIAT, 2.36" AND 3.5" A/T weapons - logistics, etc.
I can't find something which says 'x weapons were used' but the 3RAR diary suggests PIAT wasn't there.*
I will look further, later in the week.

*or was there but not referred to in war diaries.
 
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Australia seems the best bet as 'the web' says that they used PIAT early on in Korea. 3RAR had PIAT in Japan and was the first Aussie infantry Regiment into Korea (I believe) in Sept '50.
However, in August 1950, the 3RAR war diary notes:

View attachment 450528
So, the Aussies receive training on the operation of alternatives to the PIAT, before embarking for Korea.
In October 1950, 3RAR is in Korea and A/T weapons are used. However, it is the 3.5" that is used:
View attachment 450531
While not impossible, I don't think the Aussies would be carrying around PIAT, 2.36" AND 3.5" A/T weapons - logistics, etc.
I can't find something which says 'x weapons were used' but the 3RAR diary suggests PIAT wasn't there.*
I will look further, later in the week.

*or was there but not referred to in war diaries.
Thanks.
The general consensus from people I've been asking seems to indicate while it was on the books, it never got deployed.
 
Thanks.
The general consensus from people I've been asking seems to indicate while it was on the books, it never got deployed.
A bit more info. July 1950: 3RAR is told MacArthur (sic) has asked for Aussie help. 3RAR get a visit:

Screenshot_20200218-123314.png

Whether this quantity would be sufficient to replace 3RAR PIAT allotment, prior to their leaving for Korea, is not something I know enough to comment on, sorry. I will check more later.
 
Manually cocked.... The British Army.... trying to be eco-friendly since 1939.
 
@Listy - have you seen this before (or owt similar?):

'Recollections of period at Anglesey Barracks, Wupperthal, Germany, 1952-1954: nature of barracks; training as signaller including phonetic alphabet, Morse code, battery theory and use of 19 wireless set. REEL 3 Continues: training as signaller including use of 62 wireless set, method of setting up telephone system, cable types, training on use of PIAT to fire cables across rivers and passing course'

 
Ok a challenge.

Can anyone find a shred of proof that the PIAT went to Korea?
I only have one book on the Korean war: A New Battlefield, The Royal Ulster Rifles in Korea 1950-51. Apparently their Sp Coy had had their PIAT's replaced by American 3.7" Bazookas.

This is only one regiment but it might suggest that the PIAT was fazed out.
 
@Listy - have you seen this before (or owt similar?):

'Recollections of period at Anglesey Barracks, Wupperthal, Germany, 1952-1954: nature of barracks; training as signaller including phonetic alphabet, Morse code, battery theory and use of 19 wireless set. REEL 3 Continues: training as signaller including use of 62 wireless set, method of setting up telephone system, cable types, training on use of PIAT to fire cables across rivers and passing course'

I hadn't seen it, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I only have one book on the Korean war: A New Battlefield, The Royal Ulster Rifles in Korea 1950-51. Apparently their Sp Coy had had their PIAT's replaced by American 3.7" Bazookas.

This is only one regiment but it might suggest that the PIAT was fazed out.
Yeah, it seems that pretty much everyone had their PIATs replaced by M20's for Korea. Which indicates a serious lack of suitable ammo.
 
I hadn't seen it, but it wouldn't surprise me.



Yeah, it seems that pretty much everyone had their PIATs replaced by M20's for Korea. Which indicates a serious lack of suitable ammo.
Just to add, although I am still checking, multiple years entries of 1RAR and 3RAR war diaries for Korea have no mention of PIAT. Notably, it is not mentioned in parts of diaries that concern planning for, and moving to, Korea. The movement of other weapons - Vickers, Brens, mortars - is referenced, but nowt on PIAT.
3RAR were early into Korea. They would be a likely candidate for having the PIAT as they had the weapon in Japan - AWM photo references and is in this thread somewhere. However, even while 3RAR is in Japan - before moving to Korea - the PIAT is not mentioned in reports on weapons training, range activities, exercises, etc.
Fwiw, the impression gained is that they were by 1950 stacked in armouries, gathering dust.
 
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An update on the book progress for those of you who have been following this thread with interest.

The COVID-19 lock down for me has given me ample spare time, so I'm getting cracking. I've just gone through all my sources and files and extracted images that can be used for the book (still have to go through this thread to add to it!). At current I have around 178 images. I need around about sixty.

This is the editing nightmare we always find ourselves in. What gets cut, what survives. Its not made any easier by knowing that there's a few good ones on this thread as well.
 
Hurry up then! Looking forward to getting me mitts on a copy :D
 
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