PIAT

Yup spelling corruptor on my phone. You can make a rif, you can buy and sell them with good reason but a deact will never be a rif.
Yep, agreed.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Not sure about rifs used in historical vehicle displays, does this get covered by vcra as permissible or does some sort of membership of a society become a requirement?
 
Not sure about rifs used in historical vehicle displays, does this get covered by vcra as permissible or does some sort of membership of a society become a requirement?
The way I read it, and there will undoubtedly be other views, deac on a vehicle or as part of a display, can be used to re-enact etc.

Use of a RIF and acquisition of, requires membership of an organisation eg membership of a re-enactment group.
 
Slight aside, can anyone point me in the direction on the regulations on manufacturing realistic imitation firearms? Seeing I've got a large collection of drawings I'm thinking of making scale replicas as accurate as possible but workable actions.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk
 
Slight aside, can anyone point me in the direction on the regulations on manufacturing realistic imitation firearms? Seeing I've got a large collection of drawings I'm thinking of making scale replicas as accurate as possible but workable actions.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk
[Listy looks at his massive pile of PIAT Mk.II plans]
Ummm...
 
Slight aside, can anyone point me in the direction on the regulations on manufacturing realistic imitation firearms? Seeing I've got a large collection of drawings I'm thinking of making scale replicas as accurate as possible but workable actions.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk
Not sure if you mean this?

Or you may mean this:
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Not sure if you mean this?

Or you may mean this:
Mention firearms laws and like beelzebub @scalieback appears.




Thank ****
 
@Listy Some information about the use by the USSR of the PIAT. I don't think this is a re-post but I have seen so much I have forgotten.

Source: auto-translate of this article:


'As for the PIAT grenade launchers, in the USSR they were delivered in a small batch only in 1944.

The tests of grenades from "Piat" for armor penetration carried out at the GAU KA shooting range gave the following results:

_20191013_105216.JPG
'

Key, left to right: number of detonations; armour thickness, mm; armour penetration depth, mm; inlet hole mm; outlet hole, mm.

The article continues:

' To obtain the maximum possible values of armor penetration (115 mm) grenades were installed directly on the armor. For testing, we used armor plates manufactured at the Izhora plant in 1939, as well as at the Ilyich Mariupol plant in 1940, according to the specifications of the NKMF, the type of armor is homogeneous. At the next stage of testing, firing at armored plates from distances of 60–100 m showed penetration within 100–110 mm.'

'The practical range of the British grenade launcher was determined at 100 meters. At the same time, the following was recorded in the test site report:

“The disadvantage of grenades is the difficulty in equipping them, as gelatinous dynamite, TNT, tertiary are used as a bursting charge and initiators [as in the text; perhaps tetryl is meant - approx. editors] and TEN. As a result of this equipment (dynamite), the grenade cannot have sufficient stability in conditions of variable temperature and can only be used in temperate climates, where there is no severe frost and heat."

'Testers also noted that shooting from the shoulder is not very convenient, and the recoil during the shot is very significant.'

'Considering that by this time among the trophies of the Red Army there was already a significant number of German Ofenor and Panzerfaust grenade launchers , which had much less weight, comparable range and higher penetration, the Lend-Lease grenade launcher did not look particularly promising. Here's what the comparative table of trophy and Lend-Lease systems looked like according to tests at the Soviet training ground'

Screenshot:

Screenshot_20191013-114435.pngScreenshot_20191013-114441.png

The article continues:

'Judging by further correspondence, the Pirates brought to the USSR did not get to the front, but remained in storage in the Moscow Military District. In a special order of May 1944 on the MBO troops, special attention was paid to the capricious nature of British anti-tank mines:

“In view of the fact that the explosive charge of mines is mainly made of dynamite, the storage of mines should be isolated from all ammunition at a distance of no closer than 100 meters. Joint storage with any other ammunition and explosives is not allowed. When loading, unloading and other work, laying mines should be done carefully, without tipping and throwing. "

'Obviously, neither the anti-tank rifle, nor the British-developed grenade launcher of the domestic military were particularly impressed. Moreover, at this point the offensive operations of the Soviet fronts led to the establishment of "supplies" of a large number of German grenade launchers, which in the last months of the war, fighters of the Red Army enthusiastically used in battles against their creators.'

Edit: GAU KA = Principal Department of Artillery (GAU in Russian). KA. (Red Army)
 
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@Listy Some information about the use by the USSR of the PIAT. I don't think this is a re-post but I have seen so much I have forgotten.

Source: auto-translate of this article:


'As for the PIAT grenade launchers, in the USSR they were delivered in a small batch only in 1944.

The tests of grenades from "Piat" for armor penetration carried out at the GAU KA shooting range gave the following results:

View attachment 422505'

Key, left to right: number of detonations; armour thickness, mm; armour penetration depth, mm; inlet hole mm; outlet hole, mm.

The article continues:

' To obtain the maximum possible values of armor penetration (115 mm) grenades were installed directly on the armor. For testing, we used armor plates manufactured at the Izhora plant in 1939, as well as at the Ilyich Mariupol plant in 1940, according to the specifications of the NKMF, the type of armor is homogeneous. At the next stage of testing, firing at armored plates from distances of 60–100 m showed penetration within 100–110 mm.'

'The practical range of the British grenade launcher was determined at 100 meters. At the same time, the following was recorded in the test site report:

“The disadvantage of grenades is the difficulty in equipping them, as gelatinous dynamite, TNT, tertiary are used as a bursting charge and initiators [as in the text; perhaps tetryl is meant - approx. editors] and TEN. As a result of this equipment (dynamite), the grenade cannot have sufficient stability in conditions of variable temperature and can only be used in temperate climates, where there is no severe frost and heat."

'Testers also noted that shooting from the shoulder is not very convenient, and the recoil during the shot is very significant.'

'Considering that by this time among the trophies of the Red Army there was already a significant number of German Ofenor and Panzerfaust grenade launchers , which had much less weight, comparable range and higher penetration, the Lend-Lease grenade launcher did not look particularly promising. Here's what the comparative table of trophy and Lend-Lease systems looked like according to tests at the Soviet training ground'

Screenshot:

View attachment 422567View attachment 422568

The article continues:

'Judging by further correspondence, the Pirates brought to the USSR did not get to the front, but remained in storage in the Moscow Military District. In a special order of May 1944 on the MBO troops, special attention was paid to the capricious nature of British anti-tank mines:

“In view of the fact that the explosive charge of mines is mainly made of dynamite, the storage of mines should be isolated from all ammunition at a distance of no closer than 100 meters. Joint storage with any other ammunition and explosives is not allowed. When loading, unloading and other work, laying mines should be done carefully, without tipping and throwing. "

'Obviously, neither the anti-tank rifle, nor the British-developed grenade launcher of the domestic military were particularly impressed. Moreover, at this point the offensive operations of the Soviet fronts led to the establishment of "supplies" of a large number of German grenade launchers, which in the last months of the war, fighters of the Red Army enthusiastically used in battles against their creators.'
One thing to remember Soviet armour plate was a bit shite, like the German stuff. It seems to have gone with high hardness to compensate for better quality. But thanks, Myself, and I suspect @MJM, will be making furious notes on the subject!

Ironically I have been looking at Lend Lease today, I'm desperately tying to find an itemised list of what the UK sent to Russia. Mainly as there are two competing views and claims around the Bombard, and whether it was used in Russia.


For those who are wondering about the book. I'm 20K words in, and I've just gotten the Bombard into service. This may turn out to be a bit of a big bugger!
 
'Judging by further correspondence, the Pirates* brought to the USSR did not get to the front, but remained in storage in the Moscow Military District. In a special order of May 1944 on the MBO troops, special attention was paid to the capricious nature of British anti-tank mines:

“In view of the fact that the explosive charge of mines is mainly made of dynamite, the storage of mines should be isolated from all ammunition at a distance of no closer than 100 meters. Joint storage with any other ammunition and explosives is not allowed. When loading, unloading and other work, laying mines should be done carefully, without tipping and throwing**. "

'Obviously, neither the anti-tank rifle, nor the British-developed grenade launcher of the domestic military were particularly impressed. Moreover, at this point the offensive operations of the Soviet fronts led to the establishment of "supplies" of a large number of German grenade launchers, which in the last months of the war, fighters of the Red Army enthusiastically used in battles against their creators.'
* Arrrrrrr.

** So inconvienient.

 
One thing to remember Soviet armour plate was a bit shite, like the German stuff. It seems to have gone with high hardness to compensate for better quality. But thanks, Myself, and I suspect @MJM, will be making furious notes on the subject!

Ironically I have been looking at Lend Lease today, I'm desperately tying to find an itemised list of what the UK sent to Russia. Mainly as there are two competing views and claims around the Bombard, and whether it was used in Russia.


For those who are wondering about the book. I'm 20K words in, and I've just gotten the Bombard into service. This may turn out to be a bit of a big bugger!
I have that list, from Hansard. I will post a link.

I wonder whether the concerns about use of the PIAT in very hot or cold weather kyboshed it in Russia? V hot or v cold describes Russia for much of the year!

 
I have that list, from Hansard. I will post a link.

I wonder whether the concerns about use of the PIAT in very hot or cold weather kyboshed it in Russia? V hot or v cold describes Russia for much of the year!

Thanks!

I suspect, not a lot. We were using it in Central Germany where it was a bit cold, and in the CBI and Med where it was a bit warm. Equally we switched the filling to RDX in one of the mid marks. By the way they're talking it was a early mark round they received.

9,050 tons of sisal from British East Africa(£239,000).
Oooo, you have no idea how much that will come back to bite us later in the war...

2,304 Hedgehog Projectiles.
Stop making my book longer, and adding research material I need to check!
 
I have that list, from Hansard. I will post a link.

I wonder whether the concerns about use of the PIAT in very hot or cold weather kyboshed it in Russia? V hot or v cold describes Russia for much of the year!

Bookmark that link and save it, as I suspect it will prove to be useful in future discussions about WWII.

With respect to the PIATs (1,000 of which were supplied), the list may tell us that they were sent to the Soviets but it doesn't say why. The same list that mentions 1,000 PIAT also mentions things like 2,487 Bren guns. Further up the list it mentions "Bren Carriers and Carriers Starting and Charging: 1,212 to which should be added 1,348 from Canada." It is possible that at least some of both the PIATs and the Bren Guns came as equipment with the Bren Carriers as the Soviets insisted that vehicles come fully equipped. The Soviets may then have evaluated the PIATs and then decided on the basis of that whether or not to actually send them forward with the Bren Carriers, or to leave them in a warehouse. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case nor the full story, but it's another point that would need to be taken into account.

The following is a bit off topic, but the civil stores list is quite interesting not just for what it shows about Soviet needs but also what it shows about the huge advantage which Britain had over Germany in the war with respect to being able to draw supplies from around the world. The list includes aluminium and copper from Canada, rubber from Ceylon and the Far East, industrial diamonds from Africa, tin from Malaya, wool from Australia and New Zealand, sisal from East Africa, graphite from Ceylon, jute from India, and the list goes on. All of that vital stuff came from within the British Empire and Commonwealth. And all of it could be brought from around the world and sent on to the Soviet Union because the Royal Navy controlled the seas despite the best efforts of the Germans to stop them. The Germans meanwhile were limited to what they could loot from across Europe.
 
Bookmark that link and save it, as I suspect it will prove to be useful in future discussions about WWII.

With respect to the PIATs (1,000 of which were supplied), the list may tell us that they were sent to the Soviets but it doesn't say why. The same list that mentions 1,000 PIAT also mentions things like 2,487 Bren guns. Further up the list it mentions "Bren Carriers and Carriers Starting and Charging: 1,212 to which should be added 1,348 from Canada." It is possible that at least some of both the PIATs and the Bren Guns came as equipment with the Bren Carriers as the Soviets insisted that vehicles come fully equipped. The Soviets may then have evaluated the PIATs and then decided on the basis of that whether or not to actually send them forward with the Bren Carriers, or to leave them in a warehouse. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case nor the full story, but it's another point that would need to be taken into account.

The following is a bit off topic, but the civil stores list is quite interesting not just for what it shows about Soviet needs but also what it shows about the huge advantage which Britain had over Germany in the war with respect to being able to draw supplies from around the world. The list includes aluminium and copper from Canada, rubber from Ceylon and the Far East, industrial diamonds from Africa, tin from Malaya, wool from Australia and New Zealand, sisal from East Africa, graphite from Ceylon, jute from India, and the list goes on. All of that vital stuff came from within the British Empire and Commonwealth. And all of it could be brought from around the world and sent on to the Soviet Union because the Royal Navy controlled the seas despite the best efforts of the Germans to stop them. The Germans meanwhile were limited to what they could loot from across Europe.
It is an interesting list.
I agree with your comments entirely. I hope that, whatever the politics of the matter, some Russians were appreciative of the aid rendered. It says a lot for the importance attached to the USSR staying in the war that so much was given, particularly in the years when we were short of equipment in the Far East, Africa, the UK, etc.
It (the nature of lend - lease raw materials) and the German lack of many of the same, also explains AH's war aims/gamble in the East (oil).

I am trying to work out, as per Listy's earlier remark, while sisal was so vital...

There are many interesting entries:

210 x 30" Martin guns; (?!). Should that be. 30"?

Approx 300 each ASDIC and radar sets;

162,000,000 rounds of three-oh-three;

Hedgehog (iirc the current Russian ASW mortars are based on Hedgehog - evolved therefrom);

'Fire and Grenade throwing equipment' ? Lifebuoy flame throwers? Wasp?

26,000 . 455 - for. 455 revolvers in storage in USSR, or supplied with other kit?


Full list from Hansard:

§SUPPLIES TO THE U.S.S.R. DESPATCHED BETWEEN 1ST OCTOBER, 1941, AND THE 31ST MARCH, 1946.

§1. MILITARY SUPPLIES.

§(a) War Office Supplies

§Tanks: 5,218, of which 1,388 were supplied by Canada. All tanks were shipped with ammunition.

§Vehicles(includes lorries and ambulances): 4,020.

§Machinery Lorries:323.

§Bren Carriers and Carriers Starting and Charging:

§1,212 to which should be added 1,348 from Canada.

§Motor Cycles:1,721.

§Tank and Bren Carrier Spares and Maintenance Equipment:20,145 tons.

§Other vehicle spares and Maintenance Equipment:4,090 tons.

2517
§Weapons

1,000 P.I.A.T.
103 Thompson sub-machine guns.
636 2-pdr. anti-tank guns.
96 6-pdr. anti-tank guns.
3,200 Boys anti-tank rifles.
2,487 Bren guns.
5 81 7.92 mm. Besa guns.
§Ammunition:

100,000 rounds P.I.A.T.
20,786,000 rounds 45-in. sub-machine gun.
2,807,000 rounds 2-pdr. anti-tank gun.
776,000 rounds 6-pdr. anti-tank gun.
1,761,000 rounds 55 in. Boys anti-tank rifle.
89,332,000 rounds 303-in. rifle.
53,411,000 rounds 7.92 mm. Besa.
1,163,000 2-in. Mortar (H.E. and smoke).
162,000 3-in. Mortar (H.E. and smoke).
303,000 Smoke Generators.
2,204,000 Signal Cartridges
159,000 Clams.
§Electronic Equipment.

Radar sets: 1,474.
Radio sets (including suitcase sets):4,338.
Valves: 42,850.
Radio test equipment about 850 items.
Charging and Generating Sets: 160.
§Telephone Equipment:

Telephone Cable: 30,227 miles.
Telephones: 2,000.
Switchboards, 10 line: 400.
Switchboards, 40 line: 60.
§Miscellaneous:

Exploder Cable: 1,070 miles.
Camouflage netting: 3,013,000 metres.
Camouflage face veils: 1,199,500.
Surveying and Meteorological equipment: 925 Items.
Specialloid pistons: 159,000.
Tyres: 72,000.
§(b)Admiralty Supplies Ships

1Battleship.
9 Destroyers.
4 Submarines.
5 Motor mine-sweepers.
9 Mine-sweeping trawlers.
§Asdics:293 sets.

§Radar:329 sets.

§Submarine batteries complete:41.

§Guns

56 130 mm guns complete
2 6" guns complete.
36 4" guns complete with 16 spare barrels.
22 12 pdr, guns complete with 12 spare barrels.
162 20 mm. guns complete with 54 spare barrels.
384/" Vickers complete with 52 spare barrels.
240/" Colt Browning complete with 120 spare barrels.
210 30" Martin.
36 sets 2" Rocket Projectors.
16 sets A.A.D. Type L Projectors and ammunition
530 Various Gun Mountings
2518
§Underwater Weapons—

3,206 Mines.
318 Paravanes.
6,800 Depth Charges.
2,304 Hedgehog Projectiles.
361 Torpedoes.
§Ammunition—

2,000 Rounds 15"
2,400 Rounds 6".
13,600 Rounds 4/', 4/", 4,3".
31,000 Rounds 12 pdr.
93,000 Rounds pdr.
882,000 Rounds 20 mm.
5,792,000 Rounds 5 Vickers.
1,399.500 Rounds.5 Colt Browning
26,00o Rounds 455"
359,500 Rounds 303"
889,000 Rounds 30".
4,000 Rounds 2" Rockets
§Pyrotechnics, etc. —

8,273 Flares, Grenades, Rockets, Signal and Identification Cartridges.
5 124 Generators and Smoke and Lachrymatory Candles.
67 Sets of Fire and Grenade Throwing Equipment complete.
§(c)Air Mtmstry Supplies—

Aircraft: 7,411, including 3,129 sent direct from the U.S.A. on British account.
Aircraft Engines:976.
M.T. Vehicles:L724.
Aircraft Engine and M.T. Sparesto the value of£1,15,981,000 including £8,806,000 sent direct from the U.S.A. on British account.
Equipment for aircraftto the value of£1,734,000.
Petrol, Oil and other Product,14,146 tons.
Ammunition.
162,000 000 rounds 303-in., including 13,000,000 rounds from U.S.A. on British account.
66,450,000 rounds. 30-in., including 58,450,000 rounds from U.S.A. on British account.
24,000,000 rounds 50-in., including 17,000,000 rounds from U.S.A. on British account.
17,500,000 rounds 20 mm
§2. RAW MATERIALS, FOODSTUFFS, MACHINERY AND INDUSTRIAL PLANT

§GRAND TOTAL OF CIVIL STORES MADE AVAILABLE BY THE UNITED KINGDOM FROM ALL SOURCES: £111,626,000

§(a)Raw Material.,.—The greater part of these supplies have been bought from Empire sources. The following are the more important of the items we have sent:

§30,00o tons of aluminium from Canada (£3,038,000)

§2,000 tons of aluminium from United Kingdom (£720,000).

§27,000 tons of copper from Canada (£1,431,000).

§13,000 tons of copper from United Kingdom(£773,000).

§£1,424,000 worth of industrial diamonds, mainly from African production

2519
§100,435 tons of jute from India (£4,975,000).

§114,359 tons of rubber from Ceylon and from the Far East (£15,574,000).

§9,050 tons of sisal from British East Africa(£239,000).

§3,300 tons of graphite from Ceylon (£160,000).

§28,050 tons of tin from Malaya and United Kingdom (£ 7,774,000).

§29,610 tons of wool from Australia and New Zealand (£5,521,000).

§TOTAL VALUE of these and other raw materials: £47,841,000.

§(b)Foodstuffs.—These include tea from Ceylon and India, cocoa beans, palm oil and palm kernels from West Africa; groundnuts from India, cocoanut oil from Ceylon; pepper and spices from India, Ceylon and British West Indies.

§TOTAL VALUE of all foodstuffs supplied: £8,210,000.

§(c)Machine Tools, Industrial Plant and Machinery.—These form the principal direct contribution to civil supplies for the U.S.S.R. from United Kingdom production The following are the major items which have been provided since 1st October, 1941: —

§Machine Tools: £13,081,000

§Power Plant: £12,264.000.

§Electrical Equipment: £9,091,000.

§Various types of machinery: £4,691,000

§(e g. telephone equipment, food processing plant, textile machinery, port and salvage equipment).

§Miscellaneous industrial equipment: £3,201,000.

§TOTAL VALUE of (c), including certain minor items: £43,616,000.

§3. MEDICAL SUPPLIES AND COMFORTS, AND HOSPITAL EQUIPMENT.

§The public have contributed a large proportion of th funds for these supplies. Since October, 1941, £5,260,000 have been spent through charitable organisations on surgical and medical items and clothing. In addition, His Majesty's Government have made a grant of £2,500,000 for clothing, nearly all of which has been spent.
 
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I am trying to work out, as per Listy's earlier remark, while sisal was so vital...
We worked out a new way of protecting our ships, using Sisal Fibre, and some other bits and pieces. Then when we actually tried to get some released from the MoS for production things went badly. Apparently plant fibres like Sisal were in such short supply we had a special controller and department in the MoS to ration them out. Why had we got such low stocks... I guess cause we'd dumped 9,000 tons of the stuff on Russia. In the end we had to abandon the idea, if memory serves.
 
(...) There are many interesting entries:

210 x 30" Martin guns; (?!). Should that be. 30"? (...)
I suspect those are .30 calibre Marlin Machine Guns (rather than "Martin"). The Marlin was an improved version of the Colt-Browning 1895 machine gun, fitted with a more conventional gas system instead of an exposed lever which flew up and down below the barrel. The original Colt-Browning was also known as the "potato digger".

The Marlin was a very late WWI development in the US, and was used in some of their (French made) aircraft. It was superseded after the war by the better known 1919 model of Browning machine gun.

I'm not too familiar with the details of the history of the Marlin gun, but I would not be surprised if the US dug them out of a warehouse and sold them to the UK early in WWII when the UK was desperate to buy anything that would go "bang", and when the UK no longer needed them they passed them on to the Soviets. They no doubt would have been useful as light AA machineguns for use on ships or trains or other applications like that where resupply of ammunition wasn't a big problem.
 

ches

LE
And as if by Magic:

Shame they'll all be blown up.
Bloody hell. I'm just on the final few pages of A Street in Arnhem by Kershaw, the lack of PIAT ammo when the King Tigers appeared toward the very end of the siege around Oosterbeck & no bugger could find any.
 

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