PIAT

Well make it unstable like the firer
The Ground Spigot Gun uses an unstablised missile and just simple blank Shotgun carts so is much more likely subject for scratch building.
Still needs massive amounts of cash and engineering, but less than the PIAT.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
The Ground Spigot Gun uses an unstablised missile and just simple blank Shotgun carts so is much more likely subject for scratch building.
Still needs massive amounts of cash and engineering, but less than the PIAT.
You could in theory build a new one from a new design production engineered to make it easier to make
 
You could in theory build a new one from a new design production engineered to make it easier to make
I can't help but feel there's actually a market there, especially as the consumables (tail rings and propellent charges) are single use. So there's only one place to go to buy the items.
However, there are the aforementioned legal problems to overcome first.
 
This is a hell of a question. I have oodles of documents stating the weight of the 14Lbr HE round for the Blacker Bombard. Even trails with different fillings. But I don't have a document that states what the service round was filled with.

I've seen one document that suggests it was 80/20 Amatol, which is certainly one of the options. However it states the filling was placed inside a chipboard box to lower the explosive velocity, to provide better fragmentation. This seems suspect, although lowering the density of the fuel was discussed at one point. As not one other diagram of the HE projectile, shows such a box.

So does anyone have a confirmed answer they can helpfully provide?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I can't help but feel there's actually a market there, especially as the consumables (tail rings and propellent charges) are single use. So there's only one place to go to buy the items.
However, there are the aforementioned legal problems to overcome first.
Sealed knot make stuff go bang, perhaps a reenactment version with a paper projectile that blows out on firing!
 
You could in theory build a new one from a new design production engineered to make it easier to make
Simples. You need one of these:



A supply of the ammunition:



And of course a supply of the propellant:



Even better, the projectile is not ‘stabilised in flight’.

Not at all.
 

HE117

LE
Simples. You need one of these:



A supply of the ammunition:



And of course a supply of the propellant:



Even better, the projectile is not ‘stabilised in flight’.

Not at all.
Regrettably the Mk 8 is no more!

banned by the fun police in much the same way as the 2d Banger! (that said they killed and maimed more folk than Novichok!)
 
That lack of a curved trajectory in that middle picture is bothering me much more than it should.
Mate, the PIAT is really a cleverly disguised Melta-gun* That's why t was able to kill a tiger from the front.


*War-hammer 40K Reference.. and suddenly I am struck by the similarities in shape. A modelling idea approaches!
 

Tyk

LE
Sec 5 (ae) states:


That's the one that will catch you out, every damn time. No matter how I mentally think it through, I can't seem to get around that stablization missile clause.

Edit:
Sorry forgot to talk about the cartridges.


That's a lot of modification to a shotgun cart if its true. Equally it looks like the catridge is one complete round, not two shotgun halves joined together. The Shotgun shells were used by the Tree Spigot, which would look a lot like a PIAT round after 50 years of corrosion, which would remove the tail fins and other identifying features.


Bugger me that's going to leave a hell of a spoil tip when it burrows.
 

HE117

LE
Steel replica PIAT £795
newreplicapiato04.jpg

Looks like 5 " thin wall tube and basic fabrication for most of it, the sights are the most complex bit.

At that price its worth doing.
 
(...)
Edit:
Sorry forgot to talk about the cartridges.


That's a lot of modification to a shotgun cart if its true. Equally it looks like the catridge is one complete round, not two shotgun halves joined together. The Shotgun shells were used by the Tree Spigot, which would look a lot like a PIAT round after 50 years of corrosion, which would remove the tail fins and other identifying features.
(...)
I'm not going to claim any expertise in this area, but making something that is functionally equivalent doesn't necessarily mean making it identical. There may have been reasons that the original PIAT cartridge was made like that which have to do with things like resistance to environmental conditions or suitability for mass production which would not be a concern to a hobbyist.
 
@Listy Something like this?
That was what the plans show. However I may have been mistaken. Re-reading the documentation they describe the Baby bombard as semi-auto, with a couple of other features. Trying to clue all those features into one design just does not work. Therefore, and considering Blackers background was artillery, I suspect that he actually means Semi-auto, in the artillery sense of the word (so self closing breech), which makes sense mechanically.

Still he did design the self-loading Spigot, as shown earlier.

Steel replica PIAT £795
View attachment 414132
Looks like 5 " thin wall tube and basic fabrication for most of it, the sights are the most complex bit.

At that price its worth doing.
Tempting, but is it complete inside as well? Or just outside?

I'm not going to claim any expertise in this area, but making something that is functionally equivalent doesn't necessarily mean making it identical. There may have been reasons that the original PIAT cartridge was made like that which have to do with things like resistance to environmental conditions or suitability for mass production which would not be a concern to a hobbyist.
Anyway you cut it, you need a to get an engineer to design it, and a specialist to do a limited run of the ammo. That is going to be expensive, and I'd love to haer how to get the expanding cartridge, which you can then re-load! Because that is the only way to get around the issue of single use.
 

HE117

LE
That was what the plans show. However I may have been mistaken. Re-reading the documentation they describe the Baby bombard as semi-auto, with a couple of other features. Trying to clue all those features into one design just does not work. Therefore, and considering Blackers background was artillery, I suspect that he actually means Semi-auto, in the artillery sense of the word (so self closing breech), which makes sense mechanically.

Still he did design the self-loading Spigot, as shown earlier.



Tempting, but is it complete inside as well? Or just outside?



Anyway you cut it, you need a to get an engineer to design it, and a specialist to do a limited run of the ammo. That is going to be expensive, and I'd love to haer how to get the expanding cartridge, which you can then re-load! Because that is the only way to get around the issue of single use.
My initial thoughts would be to make a short tube out of PTFE to fit in the tail tube and turn a chamber in it for a centrefire pistol blank. You would get quite a nice high-low effect, and keep the pressure down in the tail tube. I would expect the cart to eject on firing, possibly causing a throw back hazard, however you would need to do firing trials to see if this were a problem..

That said, please understand that this is just speculative and that any such enterprise would be a bit of a legal minefield.. I would strongly suggest you would need to be holding a Section 5 RFD permit to carry out such manufacture, although it may be possible to make a case for the system being Section 1 by limiting the potential payload and range of the projectile through design..

The original carts were made by Kynoch using modified shotgun cart machinery. They are basically press formed cart heads without a rim. I have seen examples that still have the Eley Kynoch headstamp, but I can't remember the bore..

Kynoch carts were used in a lot of WW2 munitions.. the 2" mortar used a modified 16bore cart and the 3" used a modified 12bore cart as the primary.
 
My initial thoughts would be to make a short tube out of PTFE to fit in the tail tube and turn a chamber in it for a centrefire pistol blank. You would get quite a nice high-low effect, and keep the pressure down in the tail tube. I would expect the cart to eject on firing, possibly causing a throw back hazard, however you would need to do firing trials to see if this were a problem..
The Cart did eject backwards on the Bombard, but it wasn't seen as a major issue. No idea on the PIAT, but I note the trough has a cut out at the base, which would likely be for disposing of the cartridge. I'm assuming it remains in contact with the spigot until it is clear of the tail tube, then gravity takes over.

That said, please understand that this is just speculative and that any such enterprise would be a bit of a legal minefield.. I would strongly suggest you would need to be holding a Section 5 RFD permit to carry out such manufacture, although it may be possible to make a case for the system being Section 1 by limiting the potential payload and range of the projectile through design..
Legal minefield, is a bit of an understatement!
The irony is, its just down to the wording of the law that's the issue. As you can have a weapon vastly more deadly, with vastly more range, with much more readily available ammo on a Sec1 cert, say a SMLE (hell, I've seen one of these appear on a Sec1 cert). Yet you want to do some historical shooting with a PIAT or a Panzerfaust (black-powder, smooth-bore weapon) and you're looking at a legislative nightmare.


I do wonder how rocket types get around the Section 5 "stabilised missile" criteria?

The original carts were made by Kynoch using modified shotgun cart machinery. They are basically press formed cart heads without a rim. I have seen examples that still have the Eley Kynoch headstamp, but I can't remember the bore..

Kynoch carts were used in a lot of WW2 munitions.. the 2" mortar used a modified 16bore cart and the 3" used a modified 12bore cart as the primary.
That's what I love about your replies they always give me a line or two in my book :D

BTW, you're the person most likely to know, but did you see my earlier query about the 14lbr Bombard HE rounds filling?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/33/0c/2d330c2416aeaec8bbb0837a66372b00.jpg
 

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