Photos that make you think.

I saw this earlier
the stopped clock !
Talking of stopped clocks. Should you ever do the 'Zeppelin Walk' in that there London one of the first elements of the tour is the stopped clock in the Dolphin Tavern.

P1040613.width-600.jpg


Detail in links below if you are interested.



ETA - I am a 'tour guide' for the Zeppelin Walk. Very reasonable rates and discount for Arrser's!
 
You look nothing like Jimmy Page!
More like Crosby, Stills and Nash!

Who wrote a song about the pub in question.

 
More like Crosby, Stills and Nash!

Who wrote a song about the pub in question.

an excellent owed and an informative given!
 
More like Crosby, Stills and Nash!

Who wrote a song about the pub in question.

Well let’s have a little listen shall we.

 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
Of course not. But many scenes were shot behind the lines (columns of marching “Jolly Tommies Off to Give Fritz What-for”
or scenes of men unloading artillery ammunition.
Scenes of artillery shooting were real, but were taken some distance behind the lines. Other shots are of aftermath, such as 18 pdr batteries moving up and avoiding dead bodies in areas which seem to be immune from rifle and machine gun fire. Then there is a well known shot of a dead bomber, captioned as being in Danzig Alley trench so possibly a Manchester.
There are only a couple of shots from Malins’ film taken in, near or from front line trenches during action. One is the famous sequence of the Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt going up near Beaumont Hamel. The camera appears to be low, looking over the parapet, and notoriously that mine was detonated ten minutes before 0730, effectively giving the Germans notice that the infantry assault was about to begin. Point here being that no fire would be coming from the German side at the time immediately preceding this Big Bang.
There are other shots, believed to be genuine, of infantry going forward and returning, but these were photographed from a considerable distance from over a parapet and it is hard to pick out individual soldiers.
A few years ago on a tour of the Somme, our guide, another member of the forum showed us a short bit of film, taken from sunken road, showing Indian cavalry charging into battle, and being massacred as the machine guns tore them apart, at which point the cameraman stopped
I have tried to locate it since but no luck
It was very emotional standing there, seeing the same view, and the horror that is war, and yet now just a quite part of rural france
It also made you question the arrogance and stupidity of the senior officers to allow men to be massacred this way
Were they unable to learn, or too set in their ways?
 
Were they unable to learn, or too set in their ways?
You've not been following the long posts on here have you?

The fact is that - under the circumstances* - there was no way for Haig to avoid fighting the Somme battle when and where he did, nor - under the circumstances** - could it have been fought more efficiently.

As for 'unable to learn' - the absolute reverse appears to have been the case. The Somme experience led to a substantial transformation of a whole range of aspects of British military capability, and laid the foundations on which Haig built (by 1918 ) an astonishingly large and proficient all-arms force to outmatch the Germans in all aspects of modern war, and which ultimately drove the Hun back to his own borders.

Seriously - read either (or both) of the two books that heve been recommended upthread (Battle Tactics of the Western Front by Paddy Griffith and Mud Blood and Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan) and you may find your way to a different understanding of the Great War,

* Germany having embarked on a meat-grinder offensive at Verdun to "bleed the French army white" Britain - in 1916 still the junior partner on the Western Front, remember - was obliged to try and divert some of Germany's military elsewhere. For the Brit and Commonwealth army that fought there, the Somme was a 'Come As You Are' party.​
** The British national economy was still not fully mobilised: as a consequence Haig was stuck with what artillery already existed, and with the quantities and quality of munitions with which an immature weapons and munitions industry could supply his army, and could not in any case develop an advance from even the most successful attack, until it was possible to overcome the problem of bringing artillery fire support (with its vast logistic train) forward across the mess that trench warfare made of the battlefield. Wicked, wicked problems.​
 
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speaking of Mud Blood and Poppycock Google just threw up a webinar with the author on YouTube (courtesy of the Western Front Association)

It's nearly 2 hours long mind you.​

 
This one (Western Front Association again) is only 20 (Oops!) 48 minutes long - but it covers the same kind of territory:

 
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@Stonker and others.
IIRC the Lions led by Donkeys is from a 1961 novel as a conversation between Lindenhof and Hindeberg.
It never happened.
In the same vein the famous photo showing a very unhappy Tommy for the 1964 Great War bbc series is chopped from a phot showing 17 Irish soldiers on the Somme in 1916.
The one opposite the soldier shown is lazing against the trench wall totally relaxed with his hands in his pockets.
He could be lounging outside a music hall waiting for his girl friend to arrive.
Photos can lie very effectively.
 

QRK2

LE
Seriously - read either (or both) of the two books that heve been recommended upthread (Battle Tactics of the Western Front by Paddy Griffith and Mud Blood and Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan) and you may find your way to a different understanding of the Great War,

Or, for a summary, watch:

 
IIRC the Lions led by Donkeys is from a 1961 novel as a conversation between Lindenhof and Hindeberg.
It never happened.
. . . . . . but was embedded in folk memory by that lying fvck Alan Clark MP, in a scarcely-researched 'history of WW1' published in paperback in 1961, just the right time to enjoy widespread popularity, and at a point in history when it would catch the wave of global antipathy to US involvement in Viet Nam which meant anti-war sentiments were all the rage.

His book (The Donkeys) has been widely disparaged by serious historians and knowledgeable reviewers in recent years, but here's how it went down with the Grauniad reviewer 60 years ago:

Alan Clark’s The Donkeys (Hutchinson, 25s) takes its title from the following exchange: Ludendorff: “The English fight like lions.” Hoffman: “But don’t we know that they are lions led by donkeys.”

Mr Clark’s seething book describes the destruction of the pre-war professional British Army at Neuve Chapelle, Loos, and “2nd Ypres” in 1915. In the first two hours of Loos more British soldiers died than the total number of casualties on both sides on D–Day, 1944. In the same battle the German gunners ceased tiring as soon as their enemy’s advance stopped, so great was the slaughter. In his sketch of the commanders, French, Robertson, Rawlinson, and Haig, the author shows that their folly, stupidity, and incompetency was obvious as early as the Marne, when the war of manoeuvre was still a reality.

 
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jmb3296

LE
Book Reviewer
speaking of Mud Blood and Poppycock Google just threw up a webinar with the author on YouTube (courtesy of the Western Front Association)

It's nearly 2 hours long mind you.​


Mud blood and poppycock currently £1.99 on kindle. I have seen it referenced many times before but have never read it. recent discussions encouraged me to go looking for it.

at £1.99 I would be foolish not to.
 

syrup

LE
Was that the Payola scandal? Lockheed looking for a deal for for C130s. The old joke about the F104 was that a German civvie couldnt buy one,as it was a war machine but if he really wanted one,all he had to do was buy a plot of land near an airfield and one would be along shortly, albeit a bit scorched and battered, sans pilot.


Downward firing ejection seats in the thing as well until they replaced them with Martin Baker seats
 
Or, for a summary, watch:


That's seriously worth sitting through.

I'm adding it to a list of links I wish @stoatman would draw to the attention of one Ian McCollum, whose views as espoused on Forgotten Weapons on the unrelated topics of:

a. Earl Haig, and;​
b. The PIAT*​
are in serious need of informed input.

* The informed input on the latter topic is readily available via the eponymous ArRSE thread owned by @Listy - himself an informed contributor to YouTube
 
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That's seriously worth sitting through.

I'm adding it to a list of links I wish @stoatman would draw to the attention of one Ian McCollum, whose views as espoused on Forgotten Weapons on the unrealted topics of:

a. Earl Haig, and;​
b. The PIAT*​
Are in serious need of informed input.

* The informed input on the latter topic is readily available via the eponymous ArRSE thread owned by @Listy - himself an informed contributor to YouTube

Not me.. I just sit in the cheap seats flicking peanuts.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Mud blood and poppycock currently £1.99 on kindle. I have seen it referenced many times before but have never read it. recent discussions encouraged me to go looking for it.

at £1.99 I would be foolish not to.
It's an excellent read I'd also recommend both books of Bully Beef & Balderdash: Some Myths of the Aif Examined and Debunked by Graham Wilson, which picks apart the rather coloured versions of the Australians War, and caused quite a fuss over there.
 

Nicky swango

Old-Salt
Downward firing ejection seats in the thing as well until they replaced them with Martin Baker seats
You’re right in that they got rid of the downwards seats but I think the replacement type was a customer option. Once upon a time I managed to survive a F-104 sortie on a squadron exchange. For obvious reasons I paid a lot of attention to the seat brief :oops: and whilst it was an upwards firing seat it most definitely wasn’t an MB product….handles in the “wrong” place, that sort of thing..o_O
 
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