Photos that make you think.

There are truly very few terrible things done in the UK today by people who are in a reflective mood. Mostly, they happen in moments of poor emotional control and without any deliberation whatsoever.

I doubt any of the young men who stick knives in each other over gang turf wars think seriously about consequences when it comes down to that 'him or me' moment.
Knowing if you used it you'd swing would be a deterrent for anyone who picks up a knife as they leave the house.
Which is why in the 50s, despite a lot of 'bring back' bayonets, pistols etc, the teds and other thugs used straight razors, boke chains etc. Because even IF somebody died, they wouldn't necessarily swing. Having a weapon of war, and using it, was a guaranteed rope dance.
 
If that doesn't work I'll have I'll consider your view, until then with nothing to back it up I will continue to reject it.
It's got considerable research done on the gangs of Glasgow; and the outcomes of successful crime-reduction strategies based on it to back it up.
 
Knowing if you used it you'd swing would be a deterrent for anyone who picks up a knife as they leave the house.
It's not really a deterrent, according to the people who routinely go armed. They think more immediately about the consequences of not going armed when they leave their house or turf, not about the possible consequence if they wind up having to use it.
 
I hope afterward he said to his supervisor something like “You know that single bomb that you didn’t believe me about…..”
RP
"Watch this trick, the last time I did it there was this great blinding light......."
 
absolutely.
To quote myself:
not just a deterrent

GMF summed it up...
What is necessary is simply that the death penalty should exist, a permanent deterrent, and that would certainly be enough at least to give pause to the armed robber, the violent thug, and (dare one suggest it?) the domestic killer who pleads loss of control, provocation, drink, drugs, an abused childhood, and any other excuse that comes to mind.

and
But if the brute knows, as he puts the boot into the old lady’s face, that he will be flogged extremely painfully, he will think twice; he will be less liable to throw people into rivers and laugh as they drown if he knows that his neck will be broken by way of retribution.

That paragraph should be enough to convince anyone of liberal tendencies that I am a vengeful sadist. I’m not, but if I were, would it matter if it saved an old lady from being battered to death, or a young life from being snuffed out by a true sadist?
50 years ago it's detterence value may well have worked that way, but nowadays I think that the public perception of the legal system and criminal punishment is such that anyone commiting a crime for which the death penalty would have applied is confident that a) they will probably not get caught, b) if they are caught they will not be convicted, and c) if they are caught and convicted the sentence will not be carried out.

'uman rights innit! Sometimes I think we are too "civilised" for our own good.
 
1638824202079.jpeg


One of the greatest racehorses of all time. Kentucky bred Man o’War (1917-1947).

Quite a few WW2 American bomber crews named their aircraft after the great nag, but it seems to have been a very unlucky choice.

This aircraft (pic below) arrived at Thurleigh on October 31st 1942 to join the 306th Heavy Bombardment Group. The 306th had become a “hard luck” outfit, and the general theme of the film 12 o’Clock High i.e. the restoration of discipline and morale, is based around the group’s early experiences.

The ground crew painting up the name and an image of the horse on 41-24486 on November 6th.
1638825567879.jpeg


They needn’t have bothered. Three days later this Man o’War was hit by flak over St Nazaire and went down into the sea taking 11 men with her. The crew was over strength (normally ten men at this stage of the war) and I have seen a reference to one man being a corporal. I think it’s possible that he was on board for the experience and excitement, manning one of the navigators flexible cheek guns, an occurrence that the film replicates.

Moving on to July 30th 1943, 41-24399 of the 91st BG (Bassingbourne) also bearing the horse’s name was returning from Kassel when she was hit over Holland and crashed near Utrecht. Eight of her ten-man crew were killed. Remnants of her airframe and engines were uncovered during housebuilding work a few years ago. A memorial was erected, and ten streets have been named after the crew.

Three weeks later, 42-3101 of the 95th (Alconbury) was lost to fighter attack on August 19th, crashing at Rotterdam. Four crew were killed and six became PoW.

The stable now had some respite; it was not until January 29th 1944 that yet another Man o’War got into trouble. This one, from the 91st again, had suffered battle damage during a mission to Frankfurt a/M. The pilot managed a crash landing at Sittingbourne, but the Togglier Sgt Roy Wright was killed.
Another three weeks passed, then it started again: 42-31357 of the 381st (Ridgewell), target Schweinfurt, went down near Koblenz on February 21st. Mercifully all crew survived.

All the aircraft mentioned so far have been B-17s of the Eighth Air Force, but it seems that the curse of the name struck elsewhere. A so-named B-26 Marauder of the 386th Bombardment Group (Ninth Air Force) out of Great Dunmow was shot down near St Valery-en-Caux on April 25th 1944, one man being killed.

Returning to the Fortresses, another Bassingbourne based B-17 of the 91st (this time called Man o’War II) , Target Frankfurt, was brought down near Reims on November 2nd. Four men were KiA, one of whom, navigator Lt Bill Mock, died when his parachute failed. Another four were captured, and two managed to evade and reach American lines.

Fate had not yet finished playing games. There was still one bomber with the name of the nag to go. 42-30717 of the 385th (Great Ashfield) collided mid-air near the target (an airfield near Oldenburg) on November 13th 1944. 4 men were killed and 6 became PoW.
One of the perils of close formation flying in poor weather conditions.
(Edit: correct date for the loss of 42-30717 was November 13th 1943 not 1944.)

I haven’t researched fighters with the name, though I know that there were certainly a few which carried it. I am intrigued by the possibility that one of these made its way to Korea and was shot down by MiG-15s in September 1951.
 
Last edited:

Chef

LE
Togglier, a real position:
The togglier was responsible for arming and dropping the bombs in lieu of a bombardier. As the war progressed, the bombing formations would drop when the lead aircraft dropped, and the need for skilled bombardiers decreased. Dropping bombs involved flipping (or toggling) the switch(es) that result in activating the bomb release mechanisms. This is the origin of the title "togglier", a combination of toggle and bombardier. The lead aircraft crew would include a skilled "group" bombardier, and many of the other crews would utilize toggliers...
 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
It's not really a deterrent, according to the people who routinely go armed. They think more immediately about the consequences of not going armed when they leave their house or turf, not about the possible consequence if they wind up having to use it.
They all talk big
The reality will soon start to erode their confidence when a few of their scummy mates get a neck stretch
 
They all talk big
The reality will soon start to erode their confidence when a few of their scummy mates get a neck stretch
Just like when we had the death penalty... er...
 
We need to push for a referendum on the death penalty. Our so called representatives can't be relied on.
Same as Brexit, the will of the people is not the will of the ruling class..
Interesting proposal, and I'm being serious here. Historically the death penalty was always reserved for the most heinous of crimes under British law. Other countries have the death penalty for crimes that would not carry the same sentance under British law.

If a a referendum were held in the UK currently, and the referendum indicated that the death penalty was to be restored, would that be for the crimes that deserved it under historical British law or for crimes that immigrants to this country felt deserved it under the legal systems in their home countries?

Could the referendum be seen by some as the chance to introduce, shall we just call them "systems of legal punishment prevalent in certain countries that do not follow the same belief systems as the UK"?
 

skeetstar

War Hero
You may have point. Imagine at some time in the future, one of our cities effectively becomes an Islamic city state. Parliament will huff and puff but do nothing... to preserve 'community cohesion'. As the rulers of this entity grow in confidence they eventually feel thay can start to implement sharia, bit by bit, but eventually they go the whole way and ergo we get the death penalty. By the time that comes about the government sees that the consequences of acting are far too far reaching. Excuses are made, contact bodies are set up, but we have got the death penalty reinstated in the UK.

I hope I'm wrong, and that nothing like this actually occurs.. but look to France or Sweden, if it happens in Europe, it may happen there first.
 
T/5 Thomas J. Barnes of the 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment's 461st PFA Btry A. Corregidor, February, 1945

s6ibzptormw21.jpg.99ffd1a6a04e87e25fc5ed00622efa1e.jpg
 
Last edited:
The date would suggest he was never a POW.
Ah. Yes I see now the date is 1945. I saw the word Corregidor and assumed he was part of the garrison in 1941.That will show me. Still, even in February 1945 there was a lot of fighting left. General Yamashita Tomoyuki and Admiral Denshichi Okochi did not formally surrender their forces at Camp John Hay, Baguio until 3 September 1945, and there were Japanese hold-outs who didn't quit for years afterwards.
 
Moving on to July 30th 1943, 41-24399 of the 91st BG (Bassingbourne) also bearing the horse’s name was returning from Kassel when she was hit over Holland and crashed near Utrecht. Eight of her ten-man crew were killed. Remnants of her airframe and engines were uncovered during housebuilding work a few years ago. A memorial was erected, and ten streets have been named after the crew.
That part of your very interesting post made me think that naming streets after our fallen (depending on the relevance such as home town etc) would be a great thing for the UK to do. Just my opinion.

Perhaps if I do some research (Google) I may uncover that this does already occur here.

Just my thoughts this morning as I try to get the England cricket 'score' out of my head!
 
Top