Photos that make you think.

[stacker1]

From the obituary:

"Robert Frederick Hitch (the grandson of Pte. Frederick Hitch VC of Rourkes Drift) was born on the 16th. July 1916 and followed his grandfather and father into the South Wales Borderers on 6th. November 1934. Bob Hitch served on the North West Frontier and Malaya and after being appointed WO1 in 1958 was posted as the R.S.M. at A.A.J.L.R. In 1963, he was Commisioned and served in Hong Kong and the Junior Tradesman's Regiment Troon, before retiring on 8th. October 1970 after 28 years and 201 days service."

I'm not sure how that works. I know the Welsh are not renowned for their ability to count, but they seem to be about seven years out with this one. Were they maybe trying to diddle him out of some pension? I make his service as 35 years and 336 days.

I underlined a bit in your post, its possible those missing 7 years were from when he commissioned.

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

From the obituary:

"Robert Frederick Hitch (the grandson of Pte. Frederick Hitch VC of Rourkes Drift) was born on the 16th. July 1916 and followed his grandfather and father into the South Wales Borderers on 6th. November 1934. Bob Hitch served on the North West Frontier and Malaya and after being appointed WO1 in 1958 was posted as the R.S.M. at A.A.J.L.R. In 1963, he was Commisioned and served in Hong Kong and the Junior Tradesman's Regiment Troon, before retiring on 8th. October 1970 after 28 years and 201 days service."

I'm not sure how that works. I know the Welsh are not renowned for their ability to count, but they seem to be about seven years out with this one. Were they maybe trying to diddle him out of some pension? I make his service as 35 years and 336 days.

Frederick Hitch VC - Medal Roll for South Africa Medal 1879: note also 'Hook VC' . Doubt very much that we'll ever see a Medal Roll page with 2 named VCs.

​

Fred's son on the Medal Roll for the Queen's South Africa medal (Boer War):

​

And his son, RF Hitch, as a Pte on the India GSM Roll for 1936/7:

 

[BopBopBop]

I watched Zulu the other night (free on Amazon)
After the last attack the Colour Sgt is instructed to call the role.

There's lots of no reply because KIA.

Colour Sgt: Hitch.
No reply
Colour Sgt: Hitch, I saw you, your alive.

Hitch: Am I, Oh thanks very much.

 

[Ruckerwocman]

Frederick Hitch VC - Medal Roll for South Africa Medal 1879: note also 'Hook VC' . Doubt very much that we'll ever see a Medal Roll page with 2 named VCs.

View attachment 540964
​

Fred's son on the Medal Roll for the Queen's South Africa medal (Boer War):

View attachment 540965
​

And his son, RF Hitch, as a Pte on the India GSM Roll for 1936/7:

View attachment 540967​

Interesting entry on the Queen's South African Medal roll. I wonder what Pte Samuel Hinton 5989 did to get his King's and Queens' medals forfeited??

19 July 1910 convicted by Civil Power. King's and Queen's Medals forfeited
Pte Samuel Hinton 5989

 

[Helm]

Interesting entry on the Queen's South African Medal roll. I wonder what Pte Samuel Hinton 5989 did to get his King's and Queens' medals forfeited??

19 July 1910 convicted by Civil Power. King's and Queen's Medals forfeited
Pte Samuel Hinton 5989

No idea but I recall reading a VC holder had his taken away for being cited in a divorce. I shall have look.
Edit it was bigamy and there were a few others

Victoria Cross​

• 1861: Valentine Bambrick (awarded 185, following his conviction for assault and theft of a comrade's medals.
• 1861: Edward St John Daniel (awarded 1854?), following his conviction for desertion and evading court-martial.
• 1872: Michael Murphy (awarded 1858?), following his conviction for theft.
• 1881: Thomas Lane (awarded 1860?), following his conviction for desertion and theft.
• 1884: Frederick Corbett (awarded 1882?), following his conviction for embezzlement and theft from an officer.
• 1895: James Collis (awarded 1881), following his conviction for bigamy.
• ?: James McGuire (awarded 185, following his conviction for stealing a cow.
• ?: George Ravenhill (awarded 1901), following his conviction for theft.
• List of revocations of appointments to orders and awarded decorations and medals of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

 

[kiwidoug]

No idea but I recall reading a VC holder had his taken away for being cited in a divorce. I shall have look.
Edit it was bigamy and there were a few others

Victoria Cross​

• 1861: Valentine Bambrick (awarded 185, following his conviction for assault and theft of a comrade's medals.
• 1861: Edward St John Daniel (awarded 1854?), following his conviction for desertion and evading court-martial.
• 1872: Michael Murphy (awarded 1858?), following his conviction for theft.
• 1881: Thomas Lane (awarded 1860?), following his conviction for desertion and theft.
• 1884: Frederick Corbett (awarded 1882?), following his conviction for embezzlement and theft from an officer.
• 1895: James Collis (awarded 1881), following his conviction for bigamy.
• ?: James McGuire (awarded 185, following his conviction for stealing a cow.
• ?: George Ravenhill (awarded 1901), following his conviction for theft.
• List of revocations of appointments to orders and awarded decorations and medals of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Just because you were courageous and a fighter, didn't mean that you weren't a cunt

 

[Helm]

Just because you were courageous and a fighter, didn't mean that you weren't a cunt

Regardless of that, it strikes me as very shameful to strip a man of a medal he earned later for civilian offences.

 

[kiwidoug]

Regardless of that, it strikes me as very shameful to strip a man of a medal he earned later for civilian offences.

I do take your point.

 

[Ruckerwocman]

No idea but I recall reading a VC holder had his taken away for being cited in a divorce. I shall have look.
Edit it was bigamy and there were a few others

Victoria Cross​

• 1861: Valentine Bambrick (awarded 185, following his conviction for assault and theft of a comrade's medals.
• 1861: Edward St John Daniel (awarded 1854?), following his conviction for desertion and evading court-martial.
• 1872: Michael Murphy (awarded 1858?), following his conviction for theft.
• 1881: Thomas Lane (awarded 1860?), following his conviction for desertion and theft.
• 1884: Frederick Corbett (awarded 1882?), following his conviction for embezzlement and theft from an officer.
• 1895: James Collis (awarded 1881), following his conviction for bigamy.
• ?: James McGuire (awarded 185, following his conviction for stealing a cow.
• ?: George Ravenhill (awarded 1901), following his conviction for theft.
• List of revocations of appointments to orders and awarded decorations and medals of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Wasn't there a famous case where a man had forfeited his VC because he had been convicted of a crime and the reigning monarch (either Edward VII or George V) gave it back to him? It set a precedent too I believe.

 

[Helm]

Wasn't there a famous case where a man had forfeited his VC because he had been convicted of a crime and the reigning monarch (either Edward VII or George V) gave it back to him? It set a precedent too I believe.

Yes and No from the above Wiki RE Collis. If anybody knows I'd like to hear more myself.
"On Collis' death his sister made a plea to King George V to restore her brother's name to the VC register. She received a sympathetic reply from the King's private secretary Lord Stamfordham who while denying the request did support the proposal that Gunner Collis' name should be inscribed with those of other VC recipients on the tablets of the Royal Artillery Victoria Cross Memorial. When the subject of forfeiture was again raised, the King's view that "no matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited" was expressed in another letter by Lord Stamfordham on 20 July 1920. There is no evidence to support the suggestion that this was in response to the earlier petition from the sister of James Collis"

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

Interesting entry on the Queen's South African Medal roll. I wonder what Pte Samuel Hinton 5989 did to get his King's and Queens' medals forfeited??

19 July 1910 convicted by Civil Power. King's and Queen's Medals forfeited
Pte Samuel Hinton 5989

At the time of the conviction, many civil criminal offences (usually those that resulted in imprisonment and thus discharge from the Army/Royal Navy) would see the man forfeit any and all medals.

 

[paddyplanty]

No idea but I recall reading a VC holder had his taken away for being cited in a divorce. I shall have look.
Edit it was bigamy and there were a few others

Victoria Cross​

• 1861: Valentine Bambrick (awarded 185, following his conviction for assault and theft of a comrade's medals.
• 1861: Edward St John Daniel (awarded 1854?), following his conviction for desertion and evading court-martial.
• 1872: Michael Murphy (awarded 1858?), following his conviction for theft.
• 1881: Thomas Lane (awarded 1860?), following his conviction for desertion and theft.
• 1884: Frederick Corbett (awarded 1882?), following his conviction for embezzlement and theft from an officer.
• 1895: James Collis (awarded 1881), following his conviction for bigamy.
• ?: James McGuire (awarded 185, following his conviction for stealing a cow.
• ?: George Ravenhill (awarded 1901), following his conviction for theft.
• List of revocations of appointments to orders and awarded decorations and medals of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Jack London wrote a short story involving a VC forfeiter - makes you wonder which it may have been.

 

[Dan Gleebles]

The loss, theft, sale or forfeiture of a medal doesn't diminish the act(s) for which it was awarded.

It's not as if the recipient was likely to have been motivated by the prospect of a medal in the first place.

 

[Helm]

The loss, theft, sale or forfeiture of a medal doesn't diminish the act(s) for which it was awarded.

It's not as if the recipient was likely to have been motivated by the prospect of a medal in the first place.

Agreed, I think in the case of the V.C. though they also lost the associated pension which back then was quite substantial.

 

[ches]

From the obituary:

"Robert Frederick Hitch (the grandson of Pte. Frederick Hitch VC of Rourkes Drift) was born on the 16th. July 1916 and followed his grandfather and father into the South Wales Borderers on 6th. November 1934. Bob Hitch served on the North West Frontier and Malaya and after being appointed WO1 in 1958 was posted as the R.S.M. at A.A.J.L.R. In 1963, he was Commisioned and served in Hong Kong and the Junior Tradesman's Regiment Troon, before retiring on 8th. October 1970 after 28 years and 201 days service."

I'm not sure how that works. I know the Welsh are not renowned for their ability to count, but they seem to be about seven years out with this one. Were they maybe trying to diddle him out of some pension? I make his service as 35 years and 336 days.

Were they referring to his service pre commission

 

[Joshua Slocum]

Photo by Greater Manchester Police on flickr


Meet the forbidding Sergeant Alf Foster – a legend of the Manchester City Police’s ‘B’ Division. Born in the Staffordshire town of Burslem in 1895, he served with the Grenadier Guards during the Great War. He joined Manchester City Police on July 27, 1921 at the age of 25. His joining record shows his previous occupation as a miner. He is said to have struck fear into the villains of Collyhurst and Miles Platting with his formidable stature - weighing in at 20 stones – and imposing presence. He was known locally as Scarface due to a deep wound across his left cheek. Many fanciful stories were told about how he had gained his scar – which no doubt helped build his reputation – in reality, he was wounded by shrapnel while fighting in the trenches. He is said to have mastered the art of bringing down a fleeing miscreant with a well-aimed throw of his sergeants' stick. Such was his reputation that parents would only have threaten an unruly child with a visit from Scarface and order was soon restored. He retired from the force in November 1946 having dedicated his life to serving the public in the uniform of a soldier and then a police officer. Sadly, he didn’t enjoy a long retirement and died just a year later but he was remembered by the public of Miles Platting and Collyhurst for many years to come. From the collection of Greater Manchester Police Museum.

 

[Nomad1382]

Photo by Greater Manchester Police on flickr


Meet the forbidding Sergeant Alf Foster – a legend of the Manchester City Police’s ‘B’ Division. Born in the Staffordshire town of Burslem in 1895, he served with the Grenadier Guards during the Great War. He joined Manchester City Police on July 27, 1921 at the age of 25. His joining record shows his previous occupation as a miner. He is said to have struck fear into the villains of Collyhurst and Miles Platting with his formidable stature - weighing in at 20 stones – and imposing presence. He was known locally as Scarface due to a deep wound across his left cheek. Many fanciful stories were told about how he had gained his scar – which no doubt helped build his reputation – in reality, he was wounded by shrapnel while fighting in the trenches. He is said to have mastered the art of bringing down a fleeing miscreant with a well-aimed throw of his sergeants' stick. Such was his reputation that parents would only have threaten an unruly child with a visit from Scarface and order was soon restored. He retired from the force in November 1946 having dedicated his life to serving the public in the uniform of a soldier and then a police officer. Sadly, he didn’t enjoy a long retirement and died just a year later but he was remembered by the public of Miles Platting and Collyhurst for many years to come. From the collection of Greater Manchester Police Museum.


View attachment 541606

A cops cop.

 

[righthandmarker]

A cops cop.

Can't imagine him taking the knee!

 

[slipperman]

Photo by Greater Manchester Police on flickr


Meet the forbidding Sergeant Alf Foster – a legend of the Manchester City Police’s ‘B’ Division. Born in the Staffordshire town of Burslem in 1895, he served with the Grenadier Guards during the Great War. He joined Manchester City Police on July 27, 1921 at the age of 25. His joining record shows his previous occupation as a miner. He is said to have struck fear into the villains of Collyhurst and Miles Platting with his formidable stature - weighing in at 20 stones – and imposing presence. He was known locally as Scarface due to a deep wound across his left cheek. Many fanciful stories were told about how he had gained his scar – which no doubt helped build his reputation – in reality, he was wounded by shrapnel while fighting in the trenches. He is said to have mastered the art of bringing down a fleeing miscreant with a well-aimed throw of his sergeants' stick. Such was his reputation that parents would only have threaten an unruly child with a visit from Scarface and order was soon restored. He retired from the force in November 1946 having dedicated his life to serving the public in the uniform of a soldier and then a police officer. Sadly, he didn’t enjoy a long retirement and died just a year later but he was remembered by the public of Miles Platting and Collyhurst for many years to come. From the collection of Greater Manchester Police Museum.


View attachment 541606

He’ll be spinning in his grave, mumbling “Why did I bother”!

 

[Arte_et_Marte]

Jack London wrote a short story involving a VC forfeiter - makes you wonder which it may have been.

Supposedly a Sailor in 'People of the Abyss' published in 1903.

Little bit of sleuth work done for you here.