Photos that make you think.

Not surprisingly, because of the ghastly torture and mutilations, few victims survived an Indian massacre. One man who did was Bill Thompson, a section worker on the Union Pacific Railroad. When Thompson’s maintenance crew was ambushed one dark night in central Nebraska while looking for a break in the telegraph wire, the seriously wounded man wisely feigned death until the red raiders moved on. At length, on terribly weakened legs, Thompson stood up, then staggered back down the tracks to the nearest station—shot, stabbed and scalped.

BeFunky_robert-thompson-scalped_jpg.jpg


Savage: American Indian Warfare on the High Plains
 
Harold Gillies is an absolute hero of mine, it is astonishing what he accomplished
Just thought I'd boast (again; a quick search shows that I've mentioned it twice in the past two decades here) that I've met him. He was a very pleasant old chap sitting on a hill painting the mountains when I chanced upon him, and I wondered how he could draw a line so straight; he showed me, and all my lines have been straight since.
 
As far as I know all accidents or incidents involving aircraft on the military register are investigated and reported on by the military, be it the RAF, Navy or the Army.

@Magic_Mushroom could you comment please?
The Military Airworthiness Authority (MAA) conducts military air accident investigations, including those for RPAS and UAS. However, they retain very close cooperation with their civvy counterparts.

Regards,
MM
 
B-24 “Liberator” burns in the air during a raid on Austria, 1944.

USAAF B-24H-30-FO Liberator s/n 42-95379 "Extra Joker", 725th Bombardment Squadron (H), 451st Bombardment Group, 49th Bombardment Wing (H), 15th Air Force out of Gioia del Colle Airfield, Italy. Shot down by German fighters over Türnitz, Austria on August 23, 1944. No survivors.



B-24 42-94812 "Little Warrior" hit by flak moments after dropping its payload over Fallersleben,Germany on June 29, 1944. Photo taken by the waist gunner of another B-24 which narrowly avoided being taken down by 'Little Warrior'. Only one of the crew bailed out but he was beaten to death by German air raid wardens on reaching the ground.
Consolidated B-24H Liberator 41-29508 of the 761st BS, 460th BG is hit by flak over Vienna, July 1944. Engineer/ TTG T/SGT Herbert A. Wilson can be seen in the process of bailing out of the forward top hatch. He survived to become a POW along with the co-pilot and bombardier, the rest of the 10 man crew perished in the resulting mid air explosion and crash.
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Just thought I'd boast (again; a quick search shows that I've mentioned it twice in the past two decades here) that I've met him. He was a very pleasant old chap sitting on a hill painting the mountains when I chanced upon him, and I wondered how he could draw a line so straight; he showed me, and all my lines have been straight since.
I am very much in envy of you.
 
One pilot. no second air crew, this was told to me by the snow drops that turned up about an hour later. The second day the air investigation team from Farnborough turned up. I was also told that the ground crew that serviced the airplane were quarantined, pending investigation into servicing records. After 3 days I was thanked for my services, and sent back to 1 ADSR at Verden. The area was still sealed off when I departed. That is all I know. I was not debriefed on my return.
Bruggen and one crew? Sure it wasn’t a Jaguar? Both flew out of there at the same time.
 
View attachment 342599
Text with photo reads:
“The sawtooth bayonet was considered to be too brutal in an already barbaric war. When plunged into the victim, it caused severe pain, also pulling out the victim's insides when removed. Therefore, any prisoners captured with this version of bayonet were immediately executed.”

1st world war soldier with said sawtooth. Not sure what the face mask is?
My understanding is the saw back was genuinely an additional tool for cutting wood and the bayonets were issued to pioneers/engineers. The injury inflicted when used on a human hadn't really been considered. The saw tooth bayonets were banned and the bayonets had the saw teeth ground off and reissued. They are now very rare.

I've held one. The pictures don't convey that the saw back wasn't just a jagged top, it was actually an intricate machining to give double "cross cut" teeth and they were extremely sharp. The bayonet was also quite heavy so would carry a lot of momentum when used.

Extremely unpleasant and I can imagine users vehemently protesting it was just a pioneer tool before receiving trench justice.
 
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My understanding is the saw back was genuinely an additional tool for cutting wood and the bayonets were issued to pioneers/engineers. The injury inflicted when used on a human hadn't really been considered. The saw tooth bayonets were banned and the bayonets had the saw teeth ground off and reissued. They are now very rare.

I've held one. The pictures don't convey that the saw back wasn't just a jagged top, it was actually an intricate machining to give double "cross cut" teeth and they were extremely sharp. The bayonet was also quite heavy so would carry a lot of momentum when used.

Extremely unpleasant and I can understand users vehemently protesting it was just a pioneer tool before receiving trench justice.
In which case, don’t take it out on a fighting patrol. There are many other possible stabbing and slashing instruments. The IWM had a WWI display of some of the improvised trench-fighting tools. Bits of iron with nails and razor blades in, etc. Nasty, nasty business.
 
In which case, don’t take it out on a fighting patrol. There are many other possible stabbing and slashing instruments. The IWM had a WWI display of some of the improvised trench-fighting tools. Bits of iron with nails and razor blades in, etc. Nasty, nasty business.
It wasn't the fighting patrols.

It was in the normal "day to day" fighting that the saw back bayonet was encountered. Assaults and defence as the conflict moved back and forth. As I said, those issued with it were generally pioneer/engineer troops, not infantry, assault or later storm troops. Tommies coming over the top, you fix bayonets to push back the assault. You just happen to have a dual purpose bayonet to help with your pioneer jobs and it just happens to be particularly unpleasant. The improvised weapons may be considered far more vicious and the Germans made particularly good use of sharpened trench shovels.
 
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It wasn't the fighting patrols.

It was in the normal "day to day" fighting that the saw back bayonet was encountered. Assaults and defence as the conflict moved back and forth. As I said, those issued with it were generally pioneer/engineer troops, not infantry, assault or later storm troops. Tommies coming over the top, you fix bayonets to push back the assault. You just happen to have a dual purpose bayonet to help with your pioneer jobs and it just happens to be particularly unpleasant. The improvised weapons may be considered far more vicious and the Germans made particularly good use of sharpened trench shovels.

IIRC the "saw back" bayonet was the same sort of unfounded controversy as were Britains "dum dum" bullets (the standard MkVII spitzer). The stories most likely have their origin in the complete bollox that old soldiers spout when repeating stories they've heard (vide much of Arrse!).

Given that British soldiers had also had saw-back bayonets for a century or so, it must have been perfectly well understood in the wider Army that the teeth were not intended to be any sort of atrocious Hun anti-personel feature. Probably the scandal has its roots in the breathless propaganda and media frenzy of the time.

IIRC there is no documented medical evidence that being stabbed with one type of bayonet over another was more or less painful, so probably just salacious embellishment.
 
IIRC the "saw back" bayonet was the same sort of unfounded controversy as were Britains "dum dum" bullets (the standard MkVII spitzer). The stories most likely have their origin in the complete bollox that old soldiers spout when repeating stories they've heard (vide much of Arrse!).

Given that British soldiers had also had saw-back bayonets for a century or so, it must have been perfectly well understood in the wider Army that the teeth were not intended to be any sort of atrocious Hun anti-personel feature. Probably the scandal has its roots in the breathless propaganda and media frenzy of the time.

IIRC there is no documented medical evidence that being stabbed with one type of bayonet over another was more or less painful, so probably just salacious embellishment.
i can see how it'd make a nastier/more difficult to heal wound but i imagine either would smart a bit.

as for the wider army, given they were very much in the minority i can understand how stuff reported in the tabloid media could be taken as fact.
 
The Military Airworthiness Authority (MAA) conducts military air accident investigations, including those for RPAS and UAS. However, they retain very close cooperation with their civvy counterparts.

Regards,
MM
Up until the advent of the MAA, the AAIB did indeed investigate some military incidents for the RAF. The RN used their own teams from as-was-then RN FSAIC, not sure what the Army process / agencies involved were.
 
I gave a like because I wasn't sure what else. I hope my recent post explains where I was coming from and that it was not trivialising.

Back to thread and more thinking....by the way - my avatar is George, 3 year old Jack Russell, and he is always making me think because I haven't got a clue what is going n in that twisted mind and he always seems to be one step ahead of me!
A like for that. We have a 6 year old Jack Russell and he is still like the manic puppy he was when he first arrived in the family - great companion!
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"When plunged into the victim, it caused severe pain, also pulling out the victim's insides when removed."
IIRC the "saw back" bayonet was the same sort of unfounded controversy ..
Probably the scandal has its roots in the breathless propaganda and media frenzy of the time.

IIRC there is no documented medical evidence that being stabbed with one type of bayonet over another was more or less painful, so probably just salacious embellishment.
I recall seeing a show about this - the whole myth was debunked.
The presenter was one of those well-learned chaps - Keeper of the King's Muskets or something - and pointed out that the last thing you wanted after bayoneting/stabbing somebody was to have the bayonet/sword hit resistance when trying to remove it.
The large 'trench knife' as shown was more of a hacking weapon, not stabby weapon.
 
View attachment 342599
Text with photo reads:
“The sawtooth bayonet was considered to be too brutal in an already barbaric war. When plunged into the victim, it caused severe pain, also pulling out the victim's insides when removed. Therefore, any prisoners captured with this version of bayonet were immediately executed.”

1st world war soldier with said sawtooth. Not sure what the face mask is?
I have one in my collection, it was made by the Swiss, as shown by a small swiss cross stamped on the cross guard. the teeth are in two rows parallel off set and facing forward, it cuts on entry, the fuller is on one side only, the other being perfectly flat. it has a butchers head tip. at the base of the blade is the stamped inscription" Waffenfabrik Neuhausen" the blade from the cross guard to the tip is 19 inches long.

On the reverse of the leather scabbard frog is the inscription " K schiumpf sattler Zurich" underneath are the numbers 53. this weapon is a nasty piece of work, and could easily be used as a hand weapon as you would use a cutlass,
 

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