Discussion in 'Royal Signals' started by SONIC, Mar 13, 2005.
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I think it used to be better...which is obvious as the standards of soldiering 10 years ago was much higher than it is now. But you have to look at the reasons why it may have declined. Younger people these days generally dont appreciate discipline as much. This is not necessarily there fault, it is just evolution. You can compare it to 50 years ago, 40, 30 and so on. Sine the country became more European and it was decided that in 2000 the Army would adhere to European guide lines, I personally believe things started going down hill. This is only my personal opinion, but I would be interested to hear others. Please dont let this thread turn into tripe!
I have been posted there Depends on what rank you are as to how good it is Tp Sgt = Section Comd =
You will never work harder than at an ATR, esp if Section Comd, but (having left the job), you'll look back and say "I want to go back" (go figure!)
Can safely say its a good career move. If you want details, PM and I'll give you the SP.
No completely agree with you G3. You indeed raise good points. As I say, it is my own opinion that the standard of training has declined but for reasons that you have outlined. Like you said, the culture of the 21st century has a lot to do with the fact that discipline seems to be a big issue. And I agree with what you say about safety issues. But the way I think is that we are here to serve a purpose. I see programs on the telly where soldiers are saying "well sir I dont agree with the war and I dont want to go to Iraq". And this is what I mean about the discipline and the level of society. There used to a time when you didnt question such things. Now we have soldiers saying they dont agree with it and wont go. Well I always thought that you do as your told.....and since the army are here for that very basic reason....to go to war if needs be.....then I dont see why people join up if they are not prepared to to what they are asked.
G3Ops, can I just say how refreshing it is to have a person with whom i not only agree but actually believe to be very intelligent and shares the views I do! If only there were more sensible posts like this! Thank you!
I've always held the opinion that as a Corps, we lost alot with the end of boys service. I have no doubt that all those in a phase 1 training position are quality individuals, but they work within ever increasing constraints, turnover is paramount under the ever watchful eye of the penny pincher.
A soldier who had completed a year or 2 in the case of an apprentice tended to be a better disciplined and better trained individual. I suppose the maths is simple, More time + more training = better quality. The discipline regime at an establishment like Harrogate was far different from anywhere today, you knew how to behave, 14 days ROP's at Harrogate was something to dread. Trust me!!
I have the utmost admiration for anyone in the training world. You have to be the right person for the job, but all my mates who have done it in the past have found the job rewarding (if not somewhat frustrating at times). To the original poster on this thread, if your carear is pointing towards the RD roster, then some time spent in the phase 1 training world will definately be a string to your bow.
Good luck mate, and enjoy it!
Now i COULD take the blooming relationship that is forming between G3Ops and beerkeg and rip the p!ss out of it.
I have to say i agree with pretty much all the points raised, ever since day 1 the intake before you claimed to have had it harder and then however many weeks later you claimed to have had it harder than the next. I dont feel phase 1 training itself is letting anybody down. And i think guys like ghostrider put a lot of graft in to make sure the standards are still as high. I personally feel that in todays society things like human rights and the bloody americanisation of our culture have a lot to blame. People need to understand that a soldier is expected to do what he is told when he is told to and when you have people, like those lovely reporters at the mirror, telling him it is wrong. Modern culture has now adopted the attitude to argue. How can you expect a soldier to follow an order that could lead to the ultimate sacrifice when society is telling him not to do it because of the attitude of the press towards the goverment of the time. I know this is the extreme but i feel that this has created the attitude in the army at the moment that questions authority and not because basic training is easier.
Oh feck it i cant resist.
G3 LOVES BEERKEG, G3 LOVES BEERKEG, G3 LOVES BEERKEG.
(it's ok mate i can vouch for the fact she is definatly a she)
The bull140 loves.....erm.....michael jackson (not Gen sir BTW)!
Now get back to being serious!
Sorry i couldnt help it. This is a serious thread and some valid and intellegent points are being made. Whats going on here, is this the twilight zone.
I can laugh now - but I remember frosty mornings "Seal-Crawling" for what seemed like hours up and down the rugby pitch at 11 Sigs (Catterick) - doing early morning Sqn PT under the smiling gaze of the 264 upgraders ( I seem to remember the Sqn hadn't done too well in the last CO's run - therefore extra PT). My point is that I can't remember anyone chuntering or gobbing off (we all understood the consequenses and a poke in the eye often offends). You shut up and got on with it...and tried to crawl behind some chick in tight Ron Hills so that at least the view was nice.
But maybe it's a bit un-PC to suggest that a poke in the eye would sort a lot of the problems out.
Whilst I'm not about to start a mutual appreciation society The Bull is correct. Not just about the hard graft, but (more importantly) about the constraints within which you now have to work. The "Bible" (Course Assesment Plan), under which auspices all Phase 1 training is now carried out, is a document you could quite easily use as a bullet-catcher on a 25m range!! AMS please take note, this document is an effective replacement for those lead aprons you used to give patients prior to taking an x-ray!!!
The rules about what you can (and more importantly, can't) do to recruits grow longer by the minute. Having said that, the adaptability of the instructor will invariably mean that a lot of what used to be called "beasting" is now encompassed under the heading "Additional Related Training". So, in order to 'train' a recruit whose field admin is arrse, backsquad him and make him spend more time in the field. It seems a little soft, but I can say with certainty that this method works.
A recruit who's personal drill is shocking, can be given remedial drill by a qualified drill instructor (ie pokey'd up and down the square for 1/2 an hour!). So, it still happens, but it is tailored to meet the individuals need, as opposed to the "good/bad old days" when the whole troop was given show parade coz the duty mong couldn't fasten the buttons properly on his "shirt, itchy-scratchy!!!"
Anyway, back on topic (climbs down off his sandbag), phase 1 recruits are not necessarily better or worse than before, just judged by a different set of standards.
When I went up to 11 in 84 the training guys I had (5 Troop) where in my opinion, some of the best blokes I met in the Sigs. They were fair, extremely funny and actually taught the more stupid ones all they needed to know. A wealth of experience and a thorough knowledge of how to beast us!
The troop commander, a young Lt was ok but the training team put their collective all into it and we had a lot of respect for them when we eventually handed our weapons into the armoury after the pass off parade.
How refreshing, a topic that hasn't degenerated into complete bitching and has got some intelligent and well thought out responses! I have to say I'm in complete agreement with the person who made the point that we forget what it's like to be a new recruit and look back through rose tinted glasses. I did basic training quite a number of years ago and I have to say my first reaction was that they get it easy now. However upon closer inspection, CMSR is now two weeks longer than when I did it, and they now spend twice as much time in the field on exercise as I did a number of years ago. This is as well as numerous other minor changes which focus more on soldiering than spit and polish.
As for lowering standards I have to say I don't agree with this at all. I prefer to look at it as us changing our approach to training. Whether we like it or not we recruit from society therefore to a certain extent we must reflect society! 20 years ago your average civvy was perhaps a bit more accustomed (through schooling, parents etc) to taking a massive bo**ocking with no explanation why, and then turning to the right and getting on with it. You're average civvy now isn't, therefore we have to take a more intelligent (notice I didn't mention easier or lowering of standards) approach to how we train him.
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