Petition For all Suicides by Veterans to be recorded as Veterans by all UK Cornoners

#3
Shouldn't we also be asking coroners to determine if the suicide was linked to service, otherwise the information is relatively meaningless?
 

greyfergie

MIA
Book Reviewer
#4
It’s still data and almost impossible to draw conclusions as to the cause most of the time I’d have thought?

At the moment the figures are total guess work
 
#5
Shouldn't we also be asking coroners to determine if the suicide was linked to service, otherwise the information is relatively meaningless?
That might be running before they walk

It’s still data and almost impossible to draw conclusions as to the cause most of the time I’d have thought?

At the moment the figures are total guess work

You have to start some where collecting data. They know what every last ******* religion and self identifying group/race/colour is
 
#6
Define veteran. Completion of Ph2 training? Completion of the minimum service under an Open Engagement? 10 years in the AR? What about completion of a tour? 6 months in KAF or a week in Sangin before CASEVAC?

Unfortunately this smacks of a desire to collect data to support a pre-determined idea. I understand that it is almost impossible for a coroner to ascribe causation to a verdict of suicide. The Open Verdict exists to cover the majority of deaths where any doubt occurs. Perhaps the best that could be hoped for, is the recording in the narrative of a subject's service where the coroner believes, on a measure of probability, it has some relevance to events.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#7
Signed. Tweeted link to my MP, for what that may be worth.

Reflecting particularly on the deployment this week of Welsh Guards to Kabul.

Anything that will help highlight the issue.
 
#8
As @lert says how do you define veteran? Why is it relevant in every case? Is there an agenda?

Also what about time out of service? Ex national serviceman two years in the UK or a year in the TA in the 70s where do they stand on this.

Let's face it there's enough moaning about news articles about crimes committed by 'ex-serviceman' on this site.
 
#9
Define veteran. Completion of Ph2 training? Completion of the minimum service under an Open Engagement? 10 years in the AR? What about completion of a tour? 6 months in KAF or a week in Sangin before CASEVAC?

Unfortunately this smacks of a desire to collect data to support a pre-determined idea. I understand that it is almost impossible for a coroner to ascribe causation to a verdict of suicide. The Open Verdict exists to cover the majority of deaths where any doubt occurs. Perhaps the best that could be hoped for, is the recording in the narrative of a subject's service where the coroner believes, on a measure of probability, it has some relevance to events.
while there is probably a lot of ambiguity surrounding a lot of post service suicides, I'm thinking/assuming/presuming that the majority of ex service personal have medical records and give an indicator or military related health issues. Its just about collecting the info and analysing it and that's where cost benefit analysis probably kicks in in the inquest process


I was under the impression there was an "official" set of parameters to be a veteran out there already. And the bar was very LOW in terms of time served

Maybe I'm imagining it. Something related to the NHS and access?

In an ideal world all the data would be seamlessly collected analysed and could be worked with, actioned to develop better future outcomes.

There has been work in the states on algorithms which when fed with data explicitly identify % chance of future suicide in males, this is being used in areas to address those identified at risk very early on and intervene

Doumentary on recently. I'll try and dig it out

At the end of the day statistical analysis relies on data, you can`t analyse data you don`t have. But Agenda driven statistical analysis can go in what ever direction you want it to go in
 
#10
And unless the statistics are more descriminating, they’d be as much use as the oft-quoted percentages of ex SP who are homeless or in prison.
 
#11
I've seen this petition touted in another place and I thought is it just me that found it a bit peculiar, I'm glad I seen this thread with some down to earth common sense points, 2 of which stand out for me:

1) How do you define a 'veteran'?
2) There appears to be an assumption of causation between having served and committing suicide which is obviously nonsensical. There might be a correlation but it would need considerably more data than just Sgt Jones topped himself therefore it was because he had served.
 
#12
What’s the point? Appears this is just something for the blazer and beret brigade to harrumph about.
 
#13
Define veteran. Completion of Ph2 training? Completion of the minimum service under an Open Engagement? 10 years in the AR? What about completion of a tour? 6 months in KAF or a week in Sangin before CASEVAC?

Unfortunately this smacks of a desire to collect data to support a pre-determined idea. I understand that it is almost impossible for a coroner to ascribe causation to a verdict of suicide. The Open Verdict exists to cover the majority of deaths where any doubt occurs. Perhaps the best that could be hoped for, is the recording in the narrative of a subject's service where the coroner believes, on a measure of probability, it has some relevance to events.
i dont think you're wrong but i think we need to understand the scale of the problem in the first place. I signed this a while back, not because i thought it'd solve the problem but because i dont think more information is a bad thing. it's interesting that when i recently received a reply to this the government quoted studies showing falklands and GW1 veterans are statistically less likely to commit suicide than the same portion of the population, yet there are other studies which show that recent leavers are more likely to commit suicide as well as reservists upon returning from tour (have heard these quoted before but not seen the numbers).

so basically we can prove anything we like with the statistics because there isnt really enough data to analyse the problem*. my issue is there seems to be plenty of anecdotal accounts of people struggling with leaving the military or their service history but we're never going to be able to help these people (and i believe we should) unless we can clearly understand and articulate the problem.

Not every serviceman has PTSD, neither are they all unaffected by their service. none of this "tip of the iceberg" chat we get as a consequence of this becoming a political issue helps because it was already in the mind of the public and scaremongering makes it less likely that the people who fund this will take it seriously.



*i've not said there is no problem because we know service can effect some people to the point of suicide, even if it turned out that combat veterans (or whatever data segment you wish to analyse) is lower than the general population that doesnt mean it just gets a stiff ignoring; maybe it should be lower still. if it's driven by military service we should mitigate the negative impact in the same way we (charities) provide over and above what the NHS would for wounded personnel
 
#15
I've seen this petition touted in another place and I thought is it just me that found it a bit peculiar, I'm glad I seen this thread with some down to earth common sense points, 2 of which stand out for me:

1) How do you define a 'veteran'?
For the NHS, it's 1 day . . . =|

1536238296735.png


Priority NHS treatment for veterans
 
#16
That’s sort of what I meant - it’s data. It can be refined later
Can it? Doesn't that rather depend on whether you've got the right data?

It'll be hard to sort the wheat from the chaff when you've only got a handful of chaff.

edit: actually, it would be quite easy but you get the drift. Only collect the data YOU want and it becomes an agenda.
 
#17
“All veterans are entitled to priority access to NHS care (including hospital, primary or community care) for conditions associated to their time within the armed forces (service-related). However this is always subject to clinical need and does not entitle you to jump the queue ahead of someone with a higher clinical need.”

So the priority NHS treatment is actually “join the queue with everyone else”? That's fair enough, but it does seem to be a meaning of the word "priority” that I haven't encountered before.
 

greyfergie

MIA
Book Reviewer
#18
Can it? Doesn't that rather depend on whether you've got the right data?

It'll be hard to sort the wheat from the chaff when you've only got a handful of chaff.

edit: actually, it would be quite easy but you get the drift. Only collect the data YOU want and it becomes an agenda.
People keep missing my point so obviously I’m explaining myself badly .... I was responding to “find out if their suicide was service related”.... I would suggest virtually impossible to find out. There’s currently no way of announcing “this suicidee is ex forces “, so as a start let’s get that information flagged up eg 2,300 ex forces killed themselves last year.... then, it may be possible to refine the data somewhat, did that individual deploy, multiple times, were they in contact. Was a suicide note specific to an incident involved etc

Atm there’s next to nothing recorded or data captured - and in a perfect world it would be great to have everything but being as we now have “nothing” let’s start with baby steps and just get ex forces recorded...
 
#19
If people were afforded an official status of veteran then there would be no need to have to chase this and other privileges afforded to veterans.
 

Top