PETERLOO

Yes indeed, the Militia and Yeomanry (and for a time, the Volunteers, Fencible Cavalry, Fencible Infantry, Sea Fencibles and Provisional Cavalry Regiments) certainly did have a place in the defence of the home country - especially in Ireland, where they were very much a part of the orbat for operations against rebels and the French - and again in Wales in 1797, where Yeomanry, Militia, Volunteers (including some hastily-raised Volunteer units) and regulars (i.e. RN and Customs Service) served as part of the same formations.

The Lord Lieutenant was theoretically in command of the county's forces, but Embodied Militia regiments were regularly posted to the far end of the country and placed under regular Army control. The Yeomanry were also posted away in this manner in the latter part of the Napoleonic Wars, so there must have been a centralised mechanism for requesting Militia/Yeomanry support from county Lords Lieutenant and seconding them to supplement and replace regular Army units on garrison duty. For example, the garrison of Bristol in 1797 under the command of the regular Army General James Rooke, comprised the 13th Foot, the Royal Berkshire Militia and the Suffolk Provisional Cavalry (which were a short-lived sort of conscripted Militia Cavalry). When this force was mobilised to march on Fishguard, the local Volunteers and Yeomanry were mobilised to become the new garrison in their absence. The garrison of Windsor Castle for much of the Napoleonic Wars was provided by the Royal Staffordshire Militia (much praised by the King and Prince Regent for their smartness of turnout, bearing, band and ARTILLERY detachment!), thus freeing up Foot Guards for ops.

The Volunteer Corps were privately raised and funded, but it was on much the same terms as the Yeomanry. Their formation had to be authorised by the Lord Lieutenant and his county committee for Militia and Volunteers. The state would then provide small-arms and equipment, with all other expenses being met by the corps. Officers were commissioned by the Lord Lieutenant and entered on to the Militia, Yeomanry, Fencible and Volunteer edition of the Army List. As mentioned, six months' good service resulted in the removal of a man's name from the hated Militia Ballot, which does go some way to explaining their huge popularity during the Napoleonic Wars. Some of the better ones were raised as an adjunct to the county Militia regiment - often providing a light infantry component. Many of these had been raised earlier during the American War of Independence and were re-raised in the 1790s.

Chains of command were 'complicated' to put it mildly... At Fishguard, a long-serving Lt Col of Militia and the local Regulating Captain of the RN were 'gazumped' by Lord Cawdor (a Yeomanry Major) due to social 'rank'. There was also then a colossal argument (settled by a later duel) when Cawdor's force met the retreating Fishguard & Newport Volunteer Infantry, whose CO held a Lieutenant-Colonelcy senior to that of Cawdor... I can easily imagine the chains of command at Peterloo to have been equally as Byzantine.
I'm going to give you an "informative" for that - the last 2 paragraphs especially.

But I'm only doing it because I can't find the "Fvcking brilliant" button :thumleft:

STONKERNOTE: Just out of interest, around 1999/2000 in the wake of a fatality during an ACF night exercise, together with a colleague, I was tasked by HQ LAND with identifying the fractures in the Regular Army/ACF CoC, which led in turn to looking at the history of linkages between Regulars and TA since the ACF were formed. This added another layer to my undestanding of the TA/Regular relationship, which I had previously investigated up to a point as a Training Major a few years earlier. You've just now added another layer to my (still far from perfect) understanding of this area, and deepened my conviction that - however 21st Century we think we are - every step forward taken by our our Army is made with long tendrils of history wrapped like brambles around its metaphorical ankles, impeding all efforts at onward progress :-D
 
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@Stonker
Further to post #135

General Sir John Byng,
Commander Northern District (absent)

Lt Colonel George L'Estrange
CO 15H, Commander of Military forces in Manchester.

Major Thomas Trafford
CO MSY

Captain Hugh Birley
2i/c MSY

William Hulton
Magistrate.

Hopefully you'll be able to see this screenshot but if you go to Google any of the above on spartacus-educational.com you'll get a link.View attachment 411174
What a mess!
 
What a mess!

Hope you're referring to the CoC and sequence of events rather than my post.

Further to your comments re: @Signalman last two paragraphs, remember, many of the MSY were members of the popular 'Pitt Clubs' as were the Magistrates. Nowhere near being 'private armies' but certainly some local affiliations though I suspect equating them to Black and Tans or B Specials may be a bit too far.

ETA If you do go to the website and click on Lt. Joliffes (19yo) accounts they're particularly interesting.

Again, as mentioned earlier in the thread - his version of events was completely overlooked in the film.
 
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Smeggers

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Local news on Granada Reports had saturation coverage on the unveiling of a memorial to the "innocent" civilians killed at Peterloo. BBC North-West Tonight did the same but with the totally unbiased view that is the BBC. What is interesting is the memorial is dedicated to those who wanted equality and liberty, but if you want to see the memorial, you have to climb steps to it. Hardly equality for wheelchair users!
 
I'm going to give you an "informative" for that - the last 2 paragraphs especially.

But I'm only doing it because I can't find the "Fvcking brilliant" button :thumleft:

STONKERNOTE: Just out of interest, around 1999/2000 in the wake of a fatality during an ACF night exercise, together with a colleague, I was tasked by HQ LAND with identifying the fractures in the Regular Army/ACF CoC, which led in turn to looking at the history of linkages between Regulars and TA since the ACF were formed. This added another layer to my undestanding of the TA/Regular relationship, which I had previously investigated up to a point as a Training Major a few years earlier. You've just now added another layer to my (still far from perfect) understanding of this area, and deepened my conviction that - however 21st Century we think we are - every step forward taken by our our Army is made with long tendrils of history wrapped like brambles around its metaphorical ankles, impeding all efforts at onward progress :-D

The opportunity to sort all this out and start with a clean sheet was at the time of the Haldane Reforms.

I suspect that the opportunity was missed as the result of making allowance for too many historical quirks and by appeasing the sensibilities of too many local and regional bigwigs. It would have been typical of the times.
 
Local news on Granada Reports had saturation coverage on the unveiling of a memorial to the "innocent" civilians killed at Peterloo. BBC North-West Tonight did the same but with the totally unbiased view that is the BBC. What is interesting is the memorial is dedicated to those who wanted equality and liberty, but if you want to see the memorial, you have to climb steps to it. Hardly equality for wheelchair users!
The BBC certainly tried to make a big thing of it. To me though,it all seemed to fall flat. The whole thing seems to have been pushed by lefty university lecturers.
 
The opportunity to sort all this out and start with a clean sheet was at the time of the Haldane Reforms.

I suspect that the opportunity was missed as the result of making allowance for too many historical quirks and by appeasing the sensibilities of too many local and regional bigwigs. It would have been typical of the times.
But you see a similar process in train later in history, post WW2, when assumptions were being made about the relationship between Army/TA/Counties (and the sort of chaps who held authority within their respective hierarchies) being pretty much 'given' or nigh on eternal.
 

Smeggers

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The BBC certainly tried to make a big thing of it. To me though,it all seemed to fall flat. The whole thing seems to have been pushed by lefty university lecturers.
Totally agree. I used the Peterloo incident to demonstrate the class attitude towards the poor in my argument against the Army as Policemen while researching my Masters. There is a definite leaning by the left-wing to show the "poor, down-trodden masses" being massacred but fail to mention the armed revolutionaries threatening the Military with swords knives and pistols. The violence shown by the military was on a par to that handed out to them. There is no mention of injured soldiers or violence by the mob, but there was a need to read The Riot Act, and as such the military acted in accordance with their orders.
 
Totally agree. I used the Peterloo incident to demonstrate the class attitude towards the poor in my argument against the Army as Policemen while researching my Masters. There is a definite leaning by the left-wing to show the "poor, down-trodden masses" being massacred but fail to mention the armed revolutionaries threatening the Military with swords knives and pistols. The violence shown by the military was on a par to that handed out to them. There is no mention of injured soldiers or violence by the mob, but there was a need to read The Riot Act, and as such the military acted in accordance with their orders.
I have always thought that the Left in this country is anti military,by tradition. The kind of Lefty dictatorships that they all seem to be fans of, will use their military against the people without hesitation.
The Left really don't get irony,do they?
 
@smeg-head
2 Special Constables killed
(1 blue on blue. 1 by the mob)
c.70 Troops injured
(IIRC 10% of casualty figs)
20 Horses injured.

Whilst it would be hard to ignore issues of 'class'.

1 of the injured protestors was struck by a trooper of the MSY.- his neighbour.
Many were known to each other
Many of the professions of the MSY could be described as upper working class, artisans and small businessmen - same as many of the radicals, printers, publishers etc.
Whereas...

I doubt the common soldiery of the regular army differed that much from the protestors. Remember, it was they who called Shame! at the MSY - and that included the officers. They hardly exhorted their men to greater violence did they? - even though they were usually from higher social strata than the local Torys.

Of the public money raised to support victims of the event - most went to the prominent radicals, not those who lost their sole source of income.

It's the rich wot got the money and the poor wot got the blame. (Be they protestors or regular soldiers).
And it was contemporary well off, rent a gobs, be they well intentioned or singularly radical or reactionary that were the self-appointed captains.
 
I have always thought that the Left in this country is anti military,by tradition. The kind of Lefty dictatorships that they all seem to be fans of, will use their military against the people without hesitation.
The Left really don't get irony,do they?

Lobsters/redcoats were not universally popular from the period after the English Civil War until sometime during Marlborough's camaigns. Understandable, from internal conflicts, e.g Ireland and Scotland, being divisive but a foreign foe being something different - especially when the home team is victorious.
They were popular during the Revolutionary/Napoleonic period - including the RN naturally for it's many victory's. The Spithead/Nore mutinies were as much about not being in fit condition to fight the French as anything (and I think the only mutineer executed was an officer - he should have known better)* throughout the wars of Empire - look at how the British soldier is portrayed by Kipling and how popular the Rifle movement was even amongst the luvvies - Artists Rifles, Civil Service Rifles, Post Office Rifles.
I'd conjecture that factors such as the Vietnam War as a precedent, acting as policeman in various shitholes and continuous negative aspects from Afghanistan/Iraq (no clear victories) all have a ratchet effect. Even the raised profile of those badly injured being rehabilitated successfully isn't going to induce someone to want to be in that position in the first place.
Where's the glory these days?
(However illusory it may be at any point).

*Although 'The Colours' by The Men They Couldn't Hang is a cracking song - they didn't research the history much.
 
I'm going to give you an "informative" for that - the last 2 paragraphs especially.

But I'm only doing it because I can't find the "Fvcking brilliant" button :thumleft:

STONKERNOTE: Just out of interest, around 1999/2000 in the wake of a fatality during an ACF night exercise, together with a colleague, I was tasked by HQ LAND with identifying the fractures in the Regular Army/ACF CoC, which led in turn to looking at the history of linkages between Regulars and TA since the ACF were formed. This added another layer to my undestanding of the TA/Regular relationship, which I had previously investigated up to a point as a Training Major a few years earlier. You've just now added another layer to my (still far from perfect) understanding of this area, and deepened my conviction that - however 21st Century we think we are - every step forward taken by our our Army is made with long tendrils of history wrapped like brambles around its metaphorical ankles, impeding all efforts at onward progress :-D
I couldn't put it better! :)

On the subject of 'privately-funded social clubs'; One document I found in the Library of Wales that had me pissing myself laughing was a series of letters from Captain Edward Corbet, OC The Towyn Volunteer Light Infantry to the Lord Lieutenant of Merionethshire, hoping that he'd appreciated the two dozen head of lamb that he's sent him and also hoping that he could perhaps send some compensation for the troop of Light Dragoons and the 2pdr Grasshopper Gun that he'd recently bought for riot-control...

... A later letter reports the loss of the gun, due to it having blown up during a gunnery drill...
 
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