PETERLOO

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
It was. Nevertheless it recognised the new and growing industrial population that needed representation.

The history syllabus I studied was referred to as 'Revolution, Reaction and Reform'.
A very significant point is that the major political parties were the Whigs and Torys, certainly not to be confused or conflated into our current Conservative/Labour, Left/Right.
Importantly, the slow steps to reform and representation were peaceful and progressive - something I think this country should be extremely proud of and celebrate.
Also, because the current Conservatives originated in 1834 (albeit an evolution from the Tory Party) and The Labour Party didn't come about until 1906
I make a lazy association of Whigs being predominantly upper class Liberals with a patrician attitude to the poorer classes - whatever became of them?

I made a reference to an article by Mick Hume 'No, Corbyn is not heir to the Peterloo heroes' upthread (www.spiked-online.com) which I think is relevant.

I agree. I think the upper class Liberal patricians you mention survive in universities and, paradoxically, in the Armed Forces.
 
@Brotherton Lad Never went to Uni but I agree - very much so.
Had some good natters with a very lefty journalist mum I know from the school run who thoroughly accepted how I described the forces being quite an arena of free speech, plain talking and enlightenment, nay - even reason at times!*

(I may also have mentioned she'd got great tits - I also told her what I thought about PCness)
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
@Brotherton Lad Never went to Uni but I agree - very much so.
Had some good natters with a very lefty journalist mum I know from the school run who thoroughly accepted how I described the forces being quite an arena of free speech, plain talking and enlightenment, nay - even reason at times!*

(I may also have mentioned she'd got great tits - I also told her what I thought about PCness)


I wouldn't hold that against you.

PS. I was referring to the bosom.
 
Well, now you know.
Genuinely, I don't think I do

I could form an opinion of what you meant, but I'd not be certain I had understood

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'll readily apologise for unintended offence.

You seem uncharacteristically reluctant to shine a light where, for me, there is murk and shadow.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
Genuinely, I don't think I do

I could form an opinion of what you meant, but I'd not be certain I had understood

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'll readily apologise for unintended offence.

You seem uncharacteristically reluctant to shine a light where, for me, there is murk and shadow.


I don't take offence. The Liberal Party of the 19th century and the Manchester Guardian are not the same beasts they are in the 21st century.
 

DTBA

War Hero
3,500 troops on streets here in 1911......
The 1911 Liverpool general transport strike, also known as the great transport workers' strike, involved dockers, railway workers and sailors, as well people from other trades. It paralysed Liverpool commerce for most of the summer of 1911. It also transformed trade unionism on Merseyside. For the first time, general trade unions were able to establish themselves on a permanent footing and become genuine mass organisations of the working class.
Strike action began on 14 June when the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union announced a nationwide merchant seamen's strike. Solidarity action in support of the seamen led to other sections of workers coming out on strike. A strike committee – chaired by syndicalistTom Mann – was formed to represent all the workers in dispute.
Many meetings were held on St. George's Plateau, next to St. George’s Hall on Lime Street, including the rally on 13 August where police baton charged a crowd of 85,000 people, who had gathered to hear Tom Mann speak.[1] This became known as "Bloody Sunday". In the police charges and subsequent unrest that carried on through the following night, over 350 people were injured. 3,500 British troops were stationed in the city by this time. Two days later, soldiers of the 18th Hussars opened fire on a crowd on Vauxhall Road, injuring fifteen, two fatally: John Sutcliffe, a 19-year-old Catholic carter, was shot twice in the head, and Michael Prendergast, a 30-year-old Catholic docker, was shot twice in the chest. An inquest into their deaths later brought in a verdict of 'justifiable homicide'.[2]
Home Secretary Winston Churchill sent in troops and positioned the cruiser HMS Antrim in the Mersey.[3]

I was trying to think of something better than killing people from Manchester on horseback, but shooting trade unionists sounds like even more fun
 
The trailer has just been on telly,featuring Redcoats.
Have I missed something,I thought it was all donkey wallopers.

Mentioned in my original post. However, the Buff facing colours of the unit getting stuck in (31st Foot) whilst being on St Peters Field don't feature (specifically) in any of the witness statements I've read. The 88th Foot (Connaught Rangers) Yellow facings, are named as shooting and bayoneting some of the fleeing crowd.

The crowd were effectively 'kettled', even a RHA gunner slashed one of the crowd.

To say that all these period details have been obviously very well researched is almost understatement - that's why I can't attribute any of the historical misrepresentations as anything other than deliberate!

As mentioned though, the 31st are closely associated with Sir John Byng who isn't shown particular favourably - even though he wasn't present.
Incidentally, Byng wears long blue tailcoat and buff breeches out of uniform, this fashion was historically associated with being a Whig - as does the guy who is pressurised into signing the Riot Order by the Tory Magistrates.

The character of 'Joseph' (David Moorst) Waterloo veteran - who spends the film looking like Smike from Nicholas Nickelby, wears what I assume to be 51st (2nd West Yorkshire) Light Infantry - Green facings, paired, square ended lacing.
A Peninsula veteran regiment, they were at Waterloo but suffered only 7 casualties.
 
It may not help but @Stonker and @Brotherton Lad but it's due to some of the Whigs later 180° volte faces that I opted to be a swing voter rather than 'party political' before I was even enfranchised.

I suspect the details you're trying to clarify are that, depending on which decade, let alone century, descriptions such as Liberal/liberal are quite contentious.
As an example, The Guardian 'then' may have championed them, The Guardian 'now' may champion them - but for a completely different set of criteria and a very different pov.
 
It may not help but @Stonker and @Brotherton Lad but it's due to some of the Whigs later 180° volte faces that I opted to be a swing voter rather than 'party political' before I was even enfranchised.

I suspect the details you're trying to clarify are that, depending on which decade, let alone century, descriptions such as Liberal/liberal are quite contentious.
As an example, The Guardian 'then' may have championed them, The Guardian 'now' may champion them - but for a completely different set of criteria and a very different pov.
Thanks

That's exactly my aim

I'm sufficiently ignorant that I've no grasp of the distinction between Whig and Tory.

I'm certain I'm not alone :)
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
The trailer has just been on telly,featuring Redcoats.
Have I missed something,I thought it was all donkey wallopers.
I did too until I read the top of this thread.
 

offog

LE
Film now on amazon prime for those who missed the sort run on film.
 
Just a quick bump seeing as today is the 200th Anniversary.
As it's Manchester I believe it rained... how sad.
I say that because whilst it's a significant day in British history (which, The Grauniad repeatedly reminds us, is little known) it's been firmly hijacked to convince folk that events of 200 years ago are practically the same today.

I have to say I'm quite amused at the paradox that The Guardian, a very pro Remain paper, that was closely connected to the actual events of the day, fails to recognise the significant majority that voted Leave!
So there's been musicians sporting the red Phrygian Cap of Liberty and Extinction Rebellion bods all pushing they're agendas whilst condemning the referendum, the democratically elected Govt etc etc.

Are we in for another 13 years of protest up to the bicentennial of the Great Reform Act?
I sincerely hope there is some reform to tell you the truth.
 
Just a quick bump seeing as today is the 200th Anniversary.
As it's Manchester I believe it rained... how sad.
I say that because whilst it's a significant day in British history (which, The Grauniad repeatedly reminds us, is little known) it's been firmly hijacked to convince folk that events of 200 years ago are practically the same today.

I have to say I'm quite amused at the paradox that The Guardian, a very pro Remain paper, that was closely connected to the actual events of the day, fails to recognise the significant majority that voted Leave!
So there's been musicians sporting the red Phrygian Cap of Liberty and Extinction Rebellion bods all pushing they're agendas whilst condemning the referendum, the democratically elected Govt etc etc.

Are we in for another 13 years of protest up to the bicentennial of the Great Reform Act?
I sincerely hope there is some reform to tell you the truth.
You're right,it did lash down. The local BBC news tried to make a big thing of it, but it just seemed like a bit of a damp squib.
 
You're right,it did lash down. The local BBC news tried to make a big thing of it, but it just seemed like a bit of a damp squib.

Dare I say that despite a film heralding the event, despite the big names trumpeting it, despite a national newspaper persistently reminding its readers, a national museums presentations - supporting a particular political pole, the choreography etc etc.

They haven't caught the people's mood.

Shelley did (at the time). Good poem.
 
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