Perhaps this belongs in the NAAFI but

#21
ugly said:
When I see a springer with its undocked tail lacerated after a morning's hunting through brambles, I know which side of the fence I'm on.
From your various posts I can tell just how passionate you are about animals. Everyone who has dogs will probably have a view on this and just to air mine. Only once in my life have I seen a serious injury to an undocked tail, this was on a terrier who got a bit stuck somewhere small. You might say that this is because most working dogs are docked, well I would say it's 50/50. I have seen ripped legs, eyes torn out, tongues ripped open, backs ripped open etc, i could go on but I'm sure you have seen the same. I am totally against docking as I regard it as painful mutilation at worst and downright snobbery at best. I'd rather give an animal the chance of not hurting its tail then chopping it off just in case.

I do however believe that as not everyone will agree on this subject the safest way to deal with it is to leave it to the vets. The result of an outright ban on the practice will definately result in suffering to dogs. At least if a vet does it he/she can make it safe and relatively painless.

I should add that I am involved in working dogs and I own retrievers.

I should also add that I would happily volunteer to chop bits off of owners who "must" conform to breed standards.

Lets not get on to the subject of dew claws.
 
#22
Thing is, many of the 3/4 of people who disagree with this are still happy to have their dogs castrated "because it calms them down".

He's not calm miss. He's planning a painful death for you and your family. He's just doing it quietly.

Seriously, these people are anti having the tails docked but are ambivalent when it comes to genital mutilation. I just don't get it.
 
#23
gingwarr said:
Seriously, these people are anti having the tails docked but are ambivalent when it comes to genital mutilation. I just don't get it.
Ok, just in case I'm a case in point. None of my dogs have been spayed or castrated either. But i agree that a lot of people consider this the norm. It is true that spaying a bitch that is never going to have a litter may well prevent serious problems in later life and vets will always recommend this. The target audience for castration/spaying is most definately pet owners and not working dog owners. I understand your point but that particular op can at least be useful and isn't exactly the subject of the "do it yourself" brigade. Tail docking is a passed down tradition and in most peoples eyes a completely pointless exercise. The amount of dogs I see on a daily basis around the Officers patch (just an example) is testament to the snobbery factor, most of these animals have never seen a dead pheasant or been off the lead long enough to run down another animal, the extent of their lives is being pampered by Fifi Tinkerbell after school or accompanying Col Chumley Warner to the office..but... they wouldn't have been bought with a tail, it just wouldn't be cricket old chap.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#24
floppyjocky said:
...

Tail docking is a passed down tradition and in most peoples eyes a completely pointless exercise.

...
My bold.

Three out of four people if we're to believe the Animal 'Rights' terrorists.
Any idea where they got the gen from ?
Was it a sampling taken from PETA members ?
 
#25
Cuts - I'm generalising a bit (ok a lot). To be fair I think it's probably a 60/40 split (against) within people that i actually discuss this subject with. No idea where the 3 out of 4 came from.

The old ones are the best..79% of statistics etc etc etc
 
#26
i think that tail docking for working dogs is a sensible precaution but for non working dogs i put it in the same bracket as ear trimming. its for cosmetic reasons and is therefore unnecessary.

however i do not believe it is cruel if done by a qualified vet. it is the amateur who uses the rubber band method who are guilty of animal cruelty.

my own father used to dock his own dogs tails when i was a child and i remember one of them had an infection which resulted in the whole tail being removed. looked a sight i can tell you
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#27
I do not condone amateur docking and never for cosmetic reasons. partly from this I will only sell to an owner that will be working the dog. There are occaissions when some slip through the net bu I'd rather my vet docked and dew clawed the whole litter than 50/50 and have them mutilated inlater life!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#28
I wrote an e mail to the canadian Kennel club on this issue for several reasons. As an almost completely english speaking country with pretty similar values to us and also as I want to live there and wanted to know if I was a criminal in advance. see response, its very practical and though doesnt attempt to ban surgery for any reason requests that its members use their judgement! What a sensible response;

CROPPING AND DOCKING


Thank you, for contacting The Canadian Kennel Club

Although much of the history of the reasons for cropping the ears and docking the tails of dogs remain unclear, the CKC affirms that cropped ears and docked tails are a significant part of the history of many of the breeds of purebred dogs. Moreover, breeders continue these practices for historical, hygienic and aesthetic reasons.



Although the CKC wishes to be attentive to changing social values with respect to purebred dogs, the CKC must also represent the wishes of its members. For the majority of the breeders whose breeds have been traditionally cropped and/or docked, their sense of the history of their breed and their aesthetic appreciation of their breed necessitates these practices. However, just as the breeders of purebred dogs have modified the temperament of the historical fighting breeds so that they reflect the values of modern society, so breeders are modifying their practices with respect to ear cropping. In recent years in the conformation and performance events sanctioned by the CKC the number of uncropped dogs has increased significantly and their presence and form is appreciated by the majority of members of the CKC.



The CKC has historically operated on the principle that the breeders and the breed clubs determine the standards for the breeds and therefore will not unilaterally legislate changes to these breed standards.



The CKC is concerned that ear cropping and tail docking be done under the most humane circumstances and to this end, has adopted the policy of barring for life from all CKC events, any person or persons who performs or causes to be performed, the ear-cropping of any dog without the use of a general anesthetic.



The CKC does not believe that any ban on cropped and/or docked dogs in the events of CKC will stop the cropping and docking of dogs in Canada because these services will still be readily available in the US and there will remain those who wish this cosmetic surgery for their dogs whether purebred or not, whether participating in the event of the CKC or not.



The CKC considers tail docking and dew claw removal, practices, which are distinct from ear cropping. Tail docking and removal of dew claws is necessary for safety in field working breeds and for hygienic reasons in other breeds. Moreover, tail docking and removal of dew claws, when performed on young puppies, is consistent with similar practices in the livestock industry.



Regards,

Client Services Department

I was unaware that ear cropping was still carried out, assuming that it is eventually it will become socially unacceptable.
 
#29
Ugly et al,

When you say "Working Dog" do you mean some sort of canine prostitute (as in "Working Girls)?

I rather fear you use the term to indicate that you curtail your best friends' wagginess to enable you to use them to do your menial collecting tasks following yourattempts to slaughter the local pheasant etc populations with lethal barrelled weapons. This being the case you are guilty of mutilation in order to facilitate your desire to commit cold-blooded murder. Your interest in firearms would also suggest you suffer from some sort of inadequacy complex, possibly penis envy?

In a civilised society dogs should be kept on a lead at all times (thereby preventing them being a danger to either themselves or society).

Dogs can also remain healthy on a vegetarian diet (unlike cats) but many unenlightened owners are unaware of this.
 
#31
Got to be a WAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
 
#32
Firehorse said:
Ugly et al,

Dogs can also remain healthy on a vegetarian diet (unlike cats) but many unenlightened owners are unaware of this.
Dogs are omnivores. If you restrict their diet to either all meat or all vegetarian then you will inhibit their balanced health, particularly their auto-immune system.

Firehorse, I don't know if you are seeking a "wah" but this isn't the NAAFI and you are taking a very serious thread into the personal abuse, return of personal abuse, thread closed direction. Cease and desist - get me a moderator!!

Back to the original, I too am against docking for cosmetic purposes. My own charming springador Windsor has recently been having trouble with a split tail end and my very responsible vet has suggested that we remove the last and penultimate digits of his tail. I am however very conscious that we need to try everything else and recently got a lead to a beeswax and honey ointment. So far so good but if sepsis took hold then the brute's tail would be off as high as was necessary to save his blessed little life.

He is 14 months old and has just started working. Ironically he splits his tail when wagging it in doorways. It looks as if I have murdered the wife when it first goes! Which of course I would only do after wrapping her in poly bags...
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#33
None of my mutts has slpit a tail yet and they are all docked, a bit like a seatbelt really. For those people who claim that retrievers and labs are left alone why not spaniels then I suggest they go and watch spaniels at work and compare them to labs. IMy dogs go into cover so thick I cant even bribe my kids to enter!
 
#34
Well spotted Agent Smith :D

My point being that if ugly is expecting any kind of reasoned radio debate he is doomed to disappointment. The type of views expounded in my previous post are those acceptable to many in the media and hold sway with much of a general public which prefers knee-jerk sentimentality to consideration of fact. I've noticed a growing tendancy for many presenters to (apparently) steer discussion in a way that means their listenership will hear only what they want to hear. Courting popularity at the expense of integrity seems to be a growing trend.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#35
Sad isnt it and also in breach of the charter!
 
#36
Firehorse said:
Well spotted Agent Smith :D

My point being that if ugly is expecting any kind of reasoned radio debate he is doomed to disappointment. The type of views expounded in my previous post are those acceptable to many in the media and hold sway with much of a general public which prefers knee-jerk sentimentality to consideration of fact. I've noticed a growing tendancy for many presenters to (apparently) steer discussion in a way that means their listenership will hear only what they want to hear. Courting popularity at the expense of integrity seems to be a growing trend.
Much of the general publc believe that wild animals are of the of the cuddly 'Walt Disney' variety and that the meat that they eat is born with a Tesco barcode on its backside. They base their opinions on nothing more than misguided sentimentality and it is up to those who have an understanding of fieldsports to educate these ignorant bunny huggers. The most alarming trend is the Government's willingness to bow down to the Animal Right's terrorists, which fails to educate and sends completely the wrong message to our ignorant population.

My Spaniel's tail is docked. I would have it no other way. Given a choice, nor would he.
 
#37
dogs have been tampered with since the first humans found a use for them. we have bred characteristics into them that we desire and have used surgery to enhance what nature gave them. however this doesnt mean to say that all dogs of a particular breed must have their tails docked. it means that those intended to be worked need it doen to protect them from harm. i see nothing wrong in this
 
#38
Bellthrob said:
Much of the general publc believe that wild animals are of the of the cuddly 'Walt Disney' variety and that the meat that they eat is born with a Tesco barcode on its backside. They base their opinions on nothing more than misguided sentimentality and it is up to those who have an understanding of fieldsports to educate these ignorant bunny huggers. The most alarming trend is the Government's willingness to bow down to the Animal Right's terrorists, which fails to educate and sends completely the wrong message to our ignorant population.

My Spaniel's tail is docked. I would have it no other way. Given a choice, nor would he.
Was being given grief once by an anti-shooting female. I pointed out that the rabbit in question had lived a free life prior to a quick death but that the chicken on her plate was unlikely to have died from natural causes following such a happy existence. She was outraged. Fluffy, cute animals are born. Meat is created and it's best not to think of how. :roll:

You'll never get through to the "ignorant population". They don't want to know. Someone in an abattoir does their dirty work and thus they are absolved from responsibility and left free to preach to those whose animals are permitted a life in line with their natural instincts.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#39
This should now point to the hunting with guns thread!
 
#40
Bellthrob wrote:

"My Spaniel's tail is docked. I would have it no other way. Given a choice, nor would he."

Nor would he ? What ? There is a lot of reasoned argument on this thread and it's interesting to hear different views. Blatant garbage statements like the above just serve to make the poster look a bit silly.
 

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