perceptions of power

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Grumblegrunt, Dec 4, 2010.

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  1. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    couldnt think of where to put this but I'll carry on and hope it makes sense..

    It seems to me that we stay in the EU because we reckon it will make us a more powerfull voice in europe, we have a seat on the security council when we dont deserve it but it makes us feel important and so on...

    but would we be better off out of the loop? that way we would have to be courted and that would make us more powerfull, certainly the figures show that we would be better off outside the eu but trading in, france was quite happy outside of NATO for years doing its own thing and ignoring the UN. by globalising our economy as per EU and US demands we have allowed outside interests to strip our assets, move our jobs/industry elsewhere and use us as a cash cow for as long as we can still get international credit.

    is it time to get a grip and peel back the corrupt layers to get back to building our own nation without worrying what europe might think - the swiss do and no one bothers them! we seem to blunder about thinking that the world owes us something all the while being continuously shafted by anyone and everyone.
     
  2. Despite not being an official member Swiss are more seriously entwined the EU than the peripheral UK. They signed up to the basic free trade agreement in 72. Most significantly the Swiss voted to open their borders and join Schengen in 08 which both the UK and EU crazed Ireland balked at. The Swiss are also bound by a whole series of bilateral agreements with Brussels. So far they've managed to hold onto their insanely generous welfare system for slow handed micro-farmers but banking secrecy is not what it was. This stealthy strategy is actually pretty insidious, a great deal of Swiss sovereignty has been ceded to Brussels.

    You can read about it here.
     
  3. More like: most of our trade comes from Europe (56% according to this PDF I got from googling UK-EU trade) and the EU makes the rules about European trade, so the greater ease of trade notwithstanding we may as well have a voice in what those rules are. We can never avoid being influenced by Europe - as alib says even the Swiss can't - so we may as well be part of it rather than just being screwed around by it.
     
  4. I think we stay in the EU because if we had to trade with the EU from outside we would face tariffs that would made in uneconomic and cost people jobs. Whether we do enough to successfully influence the EU's development is another matter.
     
  5. Rubbish, do you have any idea how much the Germans and the French sell to us and visa versa, do you really think they would dare impose tariffs out of spite, that would be like curing acne with decapitation.

    We should have trade agreements , which the EU was originally meant to be, not a political union, and a law should be put in place for a cast Iron guarantee for any increase in state money or power to go to foreign powers needing a referendum.
     
  6. I believe the French half of Eurostar is trying to use so called 'H&S rules' to ban German built trains from the channel tunnel route. I'm not common sense comes into the EU.
     
  7. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    we have allways traded with europe and seem very keen to dilute all our powers to them, yesterday the guardian had an article saying its has cost us 17 billion so far just to deal with the human rights nonsense on top of the overpayments we make and bad returns on the stuff that does count, meantime they destroy our national pride in deference to to the EU who just treat us with contempt and ignore the rules they set up. we seem to be the only country who read and act on all these daft policies. is it just revenge for ruining all the federalised european projects from the past 200 years by france and germany? those escapades cost us billions and bankrupted the empire so in my book they still owe us big time. The EU was set up to stop the european countries from fighting each other by tying them together financially but has the project has gone too far as they keep trying to fix what wasnt broken and make up excuses for a federalised european parliament with a military and tax raising capability. the term united states of europe is quite apt as it keeps meddling where its not wanted. now we have them demanding billions more so they can set up their own embassies worldwide and expand in general when its one of the most wastefull administrations in the world

    over the years we have made ourselves the supposed stepping stone for america on to europe and vise versa - does anyone actually believe that? the current wikileaks headlines dont show it to be the case, and as america becomes more fundamental I must admit to being rather nervous at being involved with anything hinting at special relationship. they should be courting out opinion and input rather then it being a given that we would do whatever is required.

    currently we are tied in to providing country bailouts which are set to double in 2011 yet they also reckon that countries will start to leave the euro before 2015 when they realise they cant afford the payments. I only hope they have to repay us in stirling not euros or we will not get a decent return. sorting ireland out is necessary but why cant we withdraw from the eu but tie ireland into our own little club along with greenland and maybe portugal so we can have cheap fish and chips, get our roads fixed and have somewhere sunny to go on holiday

    this week we have the fifa nonsense, which to me means very little -but why prostrate ourselves to those who look down on us with such distain when we could do a don king and form our own breakaway competition or even better withdraw from fifa kick out all the foreign players and see how much the other members start to protest and being excluded from such a lucrative enviroment. they are rewriting history in a stalinist way to fit their agenda so maybe we should kick back for a change.

    sounds a bit ranty I know but this tramadol I'm on is fuddling my brain a bit :)
     
  8. I just want to know why the people in charge of this country, which seems to have historically conducted itself more successfully than most of the tinpot shiteholes in the EU, now want to take advice from the them. Why should we listen to anything the jumped-up, gibbering, overpaid tossers have got to say?
    After the Wendyball Cup con the wailing idiots on the BBC were wondering 'why does nobody like us' and even resorted to weirdly playing an interview of a Battle of Britain pilot (when it wasn't even an anniversary) to bolster national pride. Well bollocks to them if 'they' don't like us because largely we don't ****ing like them and that is the message we should be sending. It's about time we stopped the introspective hand-wringing crap with our political leaders tripping over themselves to apologise for something which happened ages ago- **** it, shit happens- and the apologies never stop the whining of the aggressive aggrieved anyway, they've made whinging a lifetimes work and 'sorry' ain't gonna bring an end to 'their pain'.
     
  9. If we weren’t part of the wretched EU then we would do even more trade with Europe. For starters, we’d be paying less taxes, which in turn would make us more competitive and we would also be able to save even more money by not having to be sole provider of the European Welfare Fund. Nor would our NHS have to fix and remedy the worlds ill…

    Linked to no longer having to pay our annual subs to fund the french farmers, the further savings made on state welfare and health would be massive. Over the period of a Government I dare say that we would be talking of several hundred Billion.

    Simply by being able to not have hundreds of thousands of migrant workers earning money in the UK that is not taxed, and that is sent back to places like Poland and Lithuania would also generate many hundreds of millions of ponuds being re-used in the UK as oppossed to abroad.
     
  10. It has been mentioned many, many times but WTF has the costs of human rights got to do with the EU? The European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU, nothing to do with trade, nothing to do with the dilution of powers to the EU. Just because it's got Europe in the name, don't get overly confused.
     
  11. As I´ve written quite a few times before;The big problem lies with British burocrats trying to do backward sommersaults to keep Brussels happy,Germany and France regularly tell Brussels to take a running jump If It´s against their National Interests,H and S regulations that stifle British Companies are practically non existant in Germany.

    The problem isn´t Brussels or the EU Parliament in itself,It´s Britain´s refusal to say NO to most of the proposals coming out of the EU and then making these `guidelines`into `written in granite` Laws!

    I suspect that the British Politicians try to escape the blame for many new Laws by blaming the EU and Brussels thereby directing a lot of flack away from themselves,I might be wrong though?
     
  12. We'd also not be giving money to other countries to set up in competition against us, and then pay dole money to the people who it puts out of a job.
     
  13. Fezzick makes the point that saw the 'EFTAn' enlargement in 1995 - as Austria, Sweden and Finland were part of EFTA/EEA, did much of their trade with EU member states and so were affected massively by the EU's economics policies, they wanted a say in what those policies were! Better to be on the inside than the outside in such cases... Sweden played it well in my opinion by getting a say in the economics but not joining EMU - a referendum, public opinion and Swedish govt policy have meant that it's not heading towards the convergence criteria anytime soon and there is no chance of them adopting the Euro - so although tied into the wider EU economic system, they still have the reins of their own monetary policy. Not a bad combination - but then we in the UK are in a very similar boat to that.

    It would be interesting to see what it would be like to have the UK as an EEA/EFTA rather than an EU country though. We've always been a particularly Eurosceptic nation and resented paying in, even if we are the only ones getting a rebate. EEA membership could give much of the benefits of being part of the European system (free trade) without membership of the increasingly-troubled political unification effort. We could pick and choose if we wanted to adopt EU legislation as our own regulations if we thought it wise, or leave it out if we thought it unwise - much like I believe Norway does today. We could even 'opt-in' to various aspects if we wanted - Norway has an opt-in on ESDP and puts up men for the EU Nordic BG (although I suspect many here aren't pro-ESDP!). I would have thought it would be much easier to negotiate 'opt-ins' rather than 'opt-outs' which are currently the case and are not up for renegotiation.

    The only thing is we would be putting ourselves outside of the European decision making process but still be affected by it, much like EFTA pre-95. But if were determined to make the basis of our union with Europe in the economic sphere only, it could be possible to still have a voice and a vote on the inside on economic matters that would affect us - a sort of 'stay behind' operation. There's really no precedent for this - Greenland is the only country to leave the EU once they got home rule from Denmark - but we carry a lot more economic clout and do a lot more trade on the continent than Greenland, and I suspect the terms would be different.

    I'm surprised that this discussion has gotten to almost the end of the first page without someone calling for a reinvigorated Commonwealth with us at the head, Empire-fashion; or called for a CANZUK alliance :)
     
  14. Based on a conversation with recently retired member of the NZ civil service who's career was spent making trade deals with China I don't think CANZ would want us. Canada appears to me to be heavily tied into trade deals with the US and Mexico, NZ and Oz are dealing with the Japanese and Chinese. As he said "When the UK joined the Common Market we looked up and realised there was a lot more world out there than just 'backhome'".
     
  15. As I understand it, the UK has always been a net contributor to the Common Market, EEC, EU, so I would have thought that by definition the UK has spent the last umpty years paying to be done over by the French and Germans, rather like La Pigalle and the Reeperbahn.
    As a serious question, for all the money paid in, what, exactly has been the benefit, bearing in mind the UK was a major trading nation for a little while before the Germans united and the French got their act together?

    When you look at the calibre of the politicians we send to Brussels, you have to wonder about the combined brainpower there.
    Kinnock
    Patten
    Mandelson
    Baroness Ashton/Ashford?

    All failed trying to run a little country, trusted to run a big one?