Pensions for the TA

#1
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1391900,00.html

Army's fund is unfair to TA, say reservists
By Frances Gibb, Legal Editor



A GROUP of 30 Territorial Army recruits is bringing a discrimination test case against the Ministry of Defence to win pension rights for all 40,000 part-time soldiers.
The reservists will argue before an employment tribunal in London today that the Army has denied them access to the Army Pension Fund. Despite serving up to 126 days a year, including service in the Gulf War, and believing that part of their pay was going into the Army Pension Fund, they have been told that they will have no army pension rights on retirement.



Michael Morse, partner at Fox Hayes, the Leeds law firm leading the case for the soldiers, said: “Men and women in the TA believe that they are an integral part of the modern British Army and they make a huge commitment. Their job titles and roles are no different from regular service personnel and many became senior officers with regulars serving under them. Now it seems the MoD is telling them that they are only playing weekend warrior after all.” He said that the MoD denied that the recruits were protected by part-time legislation, although the Army’s website often called them “part-time”.

The group’s claims, made under the Equal Pay Act, argue that denial of access to a pension has a disparate impact on women, who are represented in higher numbers in the TA than in the regular Army. The MoD, which is resisting the claim, has been said to refute any comparison between the work done by the TA and regulars. 8O
I especially like the last bit, gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling that the work we all do is so valued by the MoD :roll:
 
#3
The reservists will argue before an employment tribunal in London today that the Army has denied them access to the Army Pension Fund. Despite serving up to 126 days a year, including service in the Gulf War, and believing that part of their pay was going into the Army Pension Fund, they have been told that they will have no army pension rights on retirement.
The Army has no Pension Fund, For Regulars its a Non-Contributory Pension, and is paid by the MOD from a 'Central funds' on retirement.

Like Motor Insurance, Building Insurance & Personal Liability Insurance. The MOD do not pay any and keeps no reserves, and pays out as & when, and probably saves the govenment 1,000's in the process!

So how the TA think they have a Pension Fund I do not know!

As an ex Regular PSI and retired TA Warrant Officer I know the differance!
That is not to say you should not get one, I think you should based on a yearly percentage of days paid. Bearing in mind your Bounty payment may be affected!
 
#4
Mike_2817 said:
So how the TA think they have a Pension Fund I do not know!
Maybe it is because the TA are just like an insurance fund - to be drawn upon when we do not have enough regular soldiers - simple really :roll:
 
#6
Mike_2817 said:
Bearing in mind your Bounty payment may be affected!
I understand that but I wouldn't mind it going if it was replaced with a pension. I'm not so sure if the bountiess intended purpose actually works, it mainly effects when people will leave the TA (i.e. If I decided to leave I'd now wait until April/May)

A number of us put a lot of time into the TA (about 8 hours Mon-Fri browsing this website :twisted: :twisted: )
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#7
Brig Stephen Andrews, DPS(A), Upavon, has this to say about pensions in 'Soldier' of Dec 04 (Page 49)

"I should have make it clear that, while there is no recognisable deduction from our pay towards our pension, the Armed Forces Pay Review Body does apply a percentage abatement to the comparator pay in recognition of the value of our pension. Therefore, although we don't actually pay anything ourselves, the abatement does have the same overall effect of having written a cheque."

I'd like to know what is happening to the money from my 'virtual cheque'. Up untill I read that I was not entirly convinced that we should get pension, but now as I've discovered that I've been making virtual contributions I want one.

How do I get hold of the lawyer in Leeds and make sure he has seen the article in Soldier
 
#8
Any ideas about what return you'd get for popping the bounty into a stakeholder pension? (This I'd like to point out is in no way suggested as an alternative to the posts just gone; just askin')
 
#9
TA rates of pay are linked to Regular Army rates of pay.

TA rates are normally the "on appointment" scale and do not have annual increments based on length of service.

Brig. Stephen Andrews is right that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body does apply a percentage abatement to the comparator pay in recognition of the value of a pension.

The TA have always had this abatement deducted from their pay.

THE MOD has known about this for a long time but is holding off making any decision until a test case has been heard. Taking the MOD to court is usually career limiting.

If the MOD loses, they can either: -
1. Refund all the abatements (which will require a lot of individual calculations) or
2. Offer a pension.

Don't think however that the pension will be substantial or comparable to a Regular Army pension. It will be based on the number of days served.
 
#10
sknn said:
I'd like to know what is happening to the money from my 'virtual cheque'. Up untill I read that I was not entirly convinced that we should get pension, but now as I've discovered that I've been making virtual contributions I want one
Maybe the invisible cheque gets paid as your bounty (but if thats the case how come bounty hunters get the same amount?)
 
#11
Mike_2817 said:
The Army has no Pension Fund, For Regulars its a Non-Contributory Pension, and is paid by the MOD from a 'Central funds' on retirement.

Like Motor Insurance, Building Insurance & Personal Liability Insurance. The MOD do not pay any and keeps no reserves, and pays out as & when, and probably saves the govenment 1,000's in the process!

So how the TA think they have a Pension Fund I do not know!

As an ex Regular PSI and retired TA Warrant Officer I know the differance!
Sorry Mike but you are, simply, wrong. Non contributory means that you do not actually have to pay into it, not that it does not exist. Even if there where no contributions going into it - an Unfunded scheme - benefits can still accrue. This is actually the way that private sector penions in Germany work.

Under the Treaty of Rome, pensions are deferred pay. ( Article 117? ) Case law and EU legislation shows that part time workers should have the same pensions rights as full time employees - this actually came about as part of a sex discrimination case, (Colorol, but Barber vs. GRE comes into it ) in which part time staff did not get a pension, full time staff did. The part timers wher all female: the case was that this was indirect sex discrimination.....so part time workers have to be offered penion rights.

Us STABs are part timers ( continued P.95 )
 
#12
I did not mean that the Army has no Pension Scheme! It clearly has, only that no money is 'ringfenced' or invested as in a civil scheme. I also pointed out that I feel that it should be extended to the TA on a percentage basis as now happens for some part-time workers.
 
#13
So if the courts decide that reserve service is pensionable are they likely to back date it, institute from a certain future point, pretend its the TD in reverse and say you have to have more than half your service to go in order to qualify? There must be an ex-ALS out there (who clearly won't have anything better to do now even the Army won't employ them :lol: )
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#14
In the past, I have paid as much of my TA pay as allowable into a personal pension, even though I have a work one, as my TA pay was not pensionable. I got tax relief on this. This allowance has ALWAYS been available, and I have frequently told my Troops about it (very few could be bothered, though). So, if a TA soldier was that concerned, he/she could have, already, started a tax-efficient pension scheme.

This will allow a good let-out for the Government, if they are smart enough to notice (and some of them are, beleive me).

Mind you, it's not a patch on a 'real' military pension - especially the Officer pension. I won't depress everyone not in that line of work (Regular Officer) by saying how much the non-contributory element is estimated at, but basically you could NOT buy your way into a pension scheme like that anywhere :D
 
#15
OldSnowy you've missed the point.

I agree you could take your TA pay and invest it into a personal pension,

BUT (here's the bit you won't like) your TA pay has already been reduced to make provision for a pension.

That reduction is the abatement that goes towards the Armed Forces Pension Scheme (AFPS).

Your pay has been reduced from the first day you joined the TA. But MOD has never granted you entitlement to an AFPS pension.

So either they give you all the deductions (abatements) back or they give you a pension.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#16
Pace what RARO says, TA pay is now incremental- all part of Pay 2000 or whatever its called in the TA, and mine is certainly going up every year.

I don't see how the abatment is taken into account with TA pay if it was we should be being paid more than the Regular Army.

I certainly don't do soldiering for the money - when I joined I was suprized that I got paid. I also spent 2 years on attachment overseas for which I was only paid for attending 1 camp out of 3, nor weekends or bounties etc. That being said as I said in my earlier post if I am paying a virtual cheque I'd like to know what I am getting for it.
 
#17
Well done sknn!

If you get the abatement paid back (since you won't be getting a pension) then your daily rate of pay will be higher than a regular's "on appointment" scale.

TA pay is linked directly to the equivalent rank Regular pay.
Regular pay is decided by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body every year.

Regulars also get pay rises for time served in any rank. You don't get that.

So your pay is rising annually because the Armed Services Pay Review body (which sets the rate of pay) makes a recommendation every year (to make allowance for the rising cost of living).

A regular with the same rank as you will of course overtake your pay after his annual length of service increments start to kick in. (Think of them as his annual pay rises for seniority).

See this link for TA pay background: -
http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/condofserv/mm/pay/ss_cos_mm_pay_intro_w.html

See this link for TA rates of pay: -
http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/condofserv/mm/rates_of_pay__ta.htm

For the Armed Forces Pay Review body report: -
http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/issues/afprb_rpt2004.pdf
Read paragraph 2.3
"Both Regulars and Reserves will have a modern system covering unit administration, pay, allowances, charges, benefits and pensions, and matters relating to discipline, complaints and honours.

The MOD in November 2004 instigated the NEW "Reserve Forces Pension Scheme"
See link here (from Google search): -
http://www.army.mod.uk/linked_files...er_to_Transfer___DCIC_DGMC_InternalComms3.rtf

This is only open to: -
1. FTRS
2. TA on mobilisation.

Non-mobilised TA don't qualify but your pay is still being cut short because you are still paying the abatement.
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#18
No. You want the big bucks, sign on and do 20+ years, not a couple of dodgy weekends.

A mate of mine did 12 years+ on a S-Type then realised he had no pension at the end of it. welcome to the twisted workings of the MoD.
 
#20
I am not an actuary or accountant however some food for thought:
1. Pension IS paid on mobilisations and also for the not insubstatial post op leave.
2. The bounty I believe would have to go if we got pensions. If the average TA bloke trains for 50 days a year and his pay is 80 GBP a day that is GBP 4000 a year. A bounty of 1500 GBP is almost like a 40% annual pension contribution. I believe the army is 20-30% equivalent contribution (although unfunded as mentioned) therefore I would argue for TA service the bounty is a good equivalent and MUCH less admin (look at how may pax leave after 3 years and all the admin for a nugatory pension).

That is the sensible bit. The RANT: I agree about the MOD arguing that the TA and Army work has no equivalence. It shows what a bunch of out of touch, time serving, untalented, unambitious civil service apparatchicks they are. Who would not let their TA mobilise the MOD. What a complete utter bunch of ***** (this starts with a c). I know friends on the security circuit who have a much better package!
Rant over.... I am a STAB and often asked about pensions and rply that if not conceptually certainly financially and administatively the bounty makes a lot of sense. Are there any gaping holes in my argument. feedback welcome.
ET
 

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