Pension Advice

[Bomber_1784]

I’m sure we’ve all heard by now about the Court of Appeal ruling that the Government discriminated against a group of judges and firefighters on the grounds of age, in relation to changes to their pension.

As we all know this pension change - along with the mandatory changes also made to Armed Forces pensions - was deemed unlawful. The background being that service personnel within 10 years of pensionable age were afforded grandfather rights, those that weren’t had to put up and shut up.

I understand that the Government and MoD have been looking at how they can remedy this mess of a situation, and a revised pension calculator is due out some time in March 2022.

Lots of narrative has been written about how they go about doing this, however my post comes from a slightly different angle.

Myself, and many other serving personnel, signed up for 22 years service with one eye on full pension eligibility at the age of 40. Overnight, these plans were scuppered based on a decision which has since been ruled unlawful by the courts.

Off the back of this decision and the implementation of AFPS 15, I and many other serving personnel took this decision to leave the Armed Forces. In my mind this was a breach of my contract of employment and indeed unlawful - albeit not mandated as such by the courts at that time.

I’d served for 12 years and had every intention of completing a minimum of 22 years service on AFPS 75 - thus leaving at 40 years of age in receipt of a full pension. This unlawful ruling has effectively taken that away from me, as well as many, many others.

What I haven’t seen in the many announcements from the Government or MoD, is what is being done about the significant lost income for the many individuals that took the decision to leave off the back of this illegal and grossly immoral change in 2015.

I’m aware that constructive dismissal cases for the Armed Forces legally will not be heard, but I am interested in understanding what other options might be available to myself and the many others that fall into this unfortunately category?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[PapaGolf]

I get a pension update letter every few months, explaining that a decision will be published soon, but have heard nowt

 

[Daxx]

I’m sure we’ve all heard by now about the Court of Appeal ruling that the Government discriminated against a group of judges and firefighters on the grounds of age, in relation to changes to their pension.

As we all know this pension change - along with the mandatory changes also made to Armed Forces pensions - was deemed unlawful. The background being that service personnel within 10 years of pensionable age were afforded grandfather rights, those that weren’t had to put up and shut up.

I understand that the Government and MoD have been looking at how they can remedy this mess of a situation, and a revised pension calculator is due out some time in March 2022.

Lots of narrative has been written about how they go about doing this, however my post comes from a slightly different angle.

Myself, and many other serving personnel, signed up for 22 years service with one eye on full pension eligibility at the age of 40. Overnight, these plans were scuppered based on a decision which has since been ruled unlawful by the courts.

Off the back of this decision and the implementation of AFPS 15, I and many other serving personnel took this decision to leave the Armed Forces. In my mind this was a breach of my contract of employment and indeed unlawful - albeit not mandated as such by the courts at that time.

I’d served for 12 years and had every intention of completing a minimum of 22 years service on AFPS 75 - thus leaving at 40 years of age in receipt of a full pension. This unlawful ruling has effectively taken that away from me, as well as many, many others.

What I haven’t seen in the many announcements from the Government or MoD, is what is being done about the significant lost income for the many individuals that took the decision to leave off the back of this illegal and grossly immoral change in 2015.

I’m aware that constructive dismissal cases for the Armed Forces legally will not be heard, but I am interested in understanding what other options might be available to myself and the many others that fall into this unfortunately category?

Many thanks in advance.

Join the AFPS and ask them. K. Thanks. Bye

 

[Bomber_1784]

Join the AFPS and ask them. K. Thanks. Bye

If the answer is likely to be a massive Foxtrot Oscar, I’d rather find out on here than pay £42 for the privilege. K. Thanks. Bye.

 

[Donny]

If the answer is likely to be a massive Foxtrot Oscar, I’d rather find out on here than pay £42 for the privilege. K. Thanks. Bye.

McCloud Sitrep - Forces Pension Society

I think this is the most recent update, but there may be more if you search in the AFPS section of ARRSE.

 

[Portree Kid]

Devils Advocate

Myself, and many other serving personnel, signed up for 22 years service

Did you sign up for a full 22 years ?

I personally ( and many others ) signed for 6 and went on Open Engagement for the next 16 years - I don't know anyone who enlisted for a whole 22 years.

I’m aware that constructive dismissal cases for the Armed Forces legally will not be heard, but I am interested in understanding what other options might be available to myself and the many others that fall into this unfortunately category?

Given what I have written above - I would think that you would be onto plums

 

[PapaGolf]

Did you sign up for a full 22 years ?

I personally ( and many others ) signed for 6 and went on Open Engagement for the next 16 years - I don't know anyone who enlisted for a whole 22 years.

I did

 

[Bomber_1784]

Devils Advocate



Did you sign up for a full 22 years ?

I personally ( and many others ) signed for 6 and went on Open Engagement for the next 16 years - I don't know anyone who enlisted for a whole 22 years.



Given what I have written above - I would think that you would be onto plums

You’re probably right on your plums comment but it shouldn’t be that way.

Unlawfully pushing a illegal pension scheme through and rectifying the issue retrospectively is one thing. But what about the many thousands who based their decision to leave on what has since proven to be an unlawful decision. Exiting the service was based on a belief that whilst these change were unpalatable, they were lawful. That has since proven to not be the case.

I now find myself on a half pension instead of full one - something that will financially impact me and my family for the rest of my life. I’ve lost a full career in the Armed Forces, something that was an aspiration of mine since childhood. Not to mention all of the other service benefits that I’ve had to leave behind.

Make no mistake, were it not for this unlawful pension change, I’d still be serving in the Armed Forces - incidentally less than 3 years away from full pensionable age.

An absolutely scandalous decision by the Government at the time which has since been proven by the Court of Appeal.

I certainly feel strong enough in my conviction to seek legal advice on this.

 

[PapaGolf]

I did have to re-sign TaCoS after my Class 1 though, but was on Open Engagement from Day 1

 

[Daxx]

So, you want pension advice, but don't want to subscribe the 40 odd quid to have access to the Armed Forces pension experts, yet are considering legal advice about a decision you made to leave the forces.

ArRSe is not the forum you are looking for.

 

[TheGrillsFamily]

You’re probably right on your plums comment but it shouldn’t be that way.

Unlawfully pushing a illegal pension scheme through and rectifying the issue retrospectively is one thing. But what about the many thousands who based their decision to leave on what has since proven to be an unlawful decision. Exiting the service was based on a belief that whilst these change were unpalatable, they were lawful. That has since proven to not be the case.

I now find myself on a half pension instead of full one - something that will financially impact me and my family for the rest of my life. I’ve lost a full career in the Armed Forces, something that was an aspiration of mine since childhood. Not to mention all of the other service benefits that I’ve had to leave behind.

Make no mistake, were it not for this unlawful pension change, I’d still be serving in the Armed Forces - incidentally less than 3 years away from full pensionable age.

An absolutely scandalous decision by the Government at the time which has since been proven by the Court of Appeal.

I certainly feel strong enough in my conviction to seek legal advice on this.

I retired from Open Engagement, on Pension 75 with about 7 months of Pension 15. I've also had 7 years of AR service contributing to Pension 15.
Now that I've rejoined they've got me down as being on a new contract which comes with Pension 15.
By rights I should still be getting paid the Pension 75 aspect of my pension, every month as well as my new contract wage. It's only what would happen every where else.
I'll be joining the AFP Society

 

[Portree Kid]

I did

I did have to re-sign TaCoS after my Class 1 though, but was on Open Engagement from Day 1

Nor sure I am following PG.

Or perhaps we have a different interpretation of Open Engagement.

By neither signing on or off after my initial 6 year engagement. I automatically went onto Open Engagement, which was basically a 1 year rolling contract which could be terminated by either party by giving 12 months notice. ( That's how I understood it anyway )

I don't think it was ever understood to be a commitment to serve a full 22 years.

Of course, in those days we had 6, 9 & 12 year manning points. Coming through those you were then classed as a Pension Prisoner after 12 years

I will happily accept that certain Corps might have done things a little differently to protect the investment in people.

 

[Portree Kid]

Unlawfully pushing a illegal pension scheme through and rectifying the issue retrospectively is one thing.

The pension scheme is not illegal or unlawful - Aspects of the implementation were wrong.

I certainly feel strong enough in my conviction to seek legal advice on this.

Crack on - As I said previously, you are probably wasting your time and onto plums.

 

[Donny]

I now find myself on a half pension instead of full one - something that will financially impact me and my family for the rest of my life. I’ve lost a full career in the Armed Forces, something that was an aspiration of mine since childhood. Not to mention all of the other service benefits that I’ve had to leave behind.

Make no mistake, were it not for this unlawful pension change, I’d still be serving in the Armed Forces - incidentally less than 3 years away from full pensionable age.

You’re saying you left the Army because you couldn’t accept the changes from AFPS75 to AFPS15 for the second half of your service? Out of interest what did you go to that had a better pension?

 

[PapaGolf]

Nor sure I am following PG.

Or perhaps we have a different interpretation of Open Engagement.

By neither signing on or off after my initial 6 year engagement. I automatically went onto Open Engagement, which was basically a 1 year rolling contract which could be terminated by either party by giving 12 months notice. ( That's how I understood it anyway )

I don't think it was ever understood to be a commitment to serve a full 22 years.

Of course, in those days we had 6, 9 & 12 year manning points. Coming through those you were then classed as a Pension Prisoner after 12 years

I will happily accept that certain Corps might have done things a little differently to protect the investment in people.

I've just copied this from QR's, just for clarity

2. The Open Engagement.
a. From 1 January 1991 soldiers between the ages of 16 and 17½ enter on the Open Engagement - service to age 18 and thereafter for a period of 22 years’ service with the right to give 12 months’ notice to leave the Army after completion of at least two years’ service from age 18.
b. From 1 January 1991 soldiers aged 17½ or over enter on the Open Engagement - service for 22 years from age 18 or date of entry if later with the right, after completion of at least two years’ service from the relevant date, to give 12 months’ notice to leave the Army. The relevant date in this context is age 18 or three calendar months from attestation, whichever is later.

 

[bluebells]

The pension change was a factor in my decision to leave in 2017. As a DE officer I could have severed until I was 55. In January 2015 I spent a lot of time using the pension calculator and concluded that under the new pension I would only get an extra 3% monthly Net EDP for each additional year of service.

What galled me at the time was that those of aged over 50 stayed on AF75. That would be the senior officers that endorsed the new pension scheme.

 

[Roadster280]

I've just copied this from QR's, just for clarity

2. The Open Engagement.
a. From 1 January 1991 soldiers between the ages of 16 and 17½ enter on the Open Engagement - service to age 18 and thereafter for a period of 22 years’ service with the right to give 12 months’ notice to leave the Army after completion of at least two years’ service from age 18.
b. From 1 January 1991 soldiers aged 17½ or over enter on the Open Engagement - service for 22 years from age 18 or date of entry if later with the right, after completion of at least two years’ service from the relevant date, to give 12 months’ notice to leave the Army. The relevant date in this context is age 18 or three calendar months from attestation, whichever is later.

I did the same thing, effectively. I did an S-Type from the TA for 1 year, and at the end of that year converted to Open Engagement, which was retrospective to day 1 of the S-Type. That day 1 was in February 1991.

Years later, I phoned the Army Pensions Enquiry Office to ask for some scenarios around what my pension would look like if I left at that point, vs stayed in. The cretin on the other end of the phone said two things that I have never forgotten:

”I have never had a serving soldier ask for pension forecasts as part of his decision to leave or not”. Jesus wept, were people so financially naive back then?

”This office (the Army Pensions Enquiry Office, remember) is not staffed to deal with enquiries.”

I gave up at that point.

 

[Class 66]

Isn't a full pension 37 years? A 22 year pension being 22/37 of a pension.

 

[shiny_arrse]

Isn't a full pension 37 years? A 22 year pension being 22/37 of a pension.

Yarp, It certainly was under AFPS75, not sure about AFPS05 or AFPS15.

 

[PapaGolf]

I retired from Open Engagement, on Pension 75 with about 7 months of Pension 15. I've also had 7 years of AR service contributing to Pension 15.
Now that I've rejoined they've got me down as being on a new contract which comes with Pension 15.
By rights I should still be getting paid the Pension 75 aspect of my pension, every month as well as my new contract wage. It's only what would happen every where else.
I'll be joining the AFP Society

What about this? Anyone got any thoughts!