PC Andrew Harper.

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
Well, not quite.
BBC are running the story now; with a view to making involvement in death of a Police Officer an automatic life sentence.
I might believe that when, and if, I see it printed in real words on vellum.
 
Genuine question. How much time before a trial do the defence and prosecution counsel have in order to prepare themselves for a trial? Is it days, weeks, months or just a couple of hours?
AIUI it can be all of those depending on the seriousness of the offence and if the defendant can afford to go private and pay for more prep time
 

endure

GCM
Those lawyers are merely paying their dues before the big money starts to roll in, and everyone knows it. Kier Starmer QC is a multi-millionaire knight of the realm. Cherie Blair another extremely wealthy lefty lawyer.
 
That’s essentially what manslaughter is.
You got a not unreasonable disagree for that comment (not from me I hasten to add) as there are various categories of manslaughter. Not all are the result of ‘causing death whilst committing a crime.

‘Unlawful act manslaughter’ is the one you needed.
 
Well, not quite.
BBC are running the story now; with a view to making involvement in death of a Police Officer an automatic life sentence.
I might believe that when, and if, I see it printed in real words on vellum.
A murder conviction carries a mandatory life sentence with a minimum time to be served before parole eligibility set by the judge.

For the murder of a police /prison officer the minimum term starting point is currently thirty years.

I believe the fact sheet below was published when PMTM was Home Sec but open to correction on that...

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill
Fact sheet: term of imprisonment for murder of a police or prison officer​

Introduction
1. The Government is making this change in the law because it recognises the unique and dangerous job that police and prison officers do on a daily basis. The Government has rightly reformed policing and the terms under police officers work. It also wants to be clear how highly it values the job that police and prison officers do in keeping the public safe. They perform a unique role in that their daily duties bring them into routine contact with dangerous offenders in difficult situations and we know that, tragically, some officers have paid the ultimate price in carrying out these duties. The change also signals the Government’s commitment to the established British model of policing by consent.

What is the current position?
2. A life sentence is mandatory for murder. There is statutory guidance to the courts on determining the seriousness of an offence and minimum term to be served under a life sentence for murder. The minimum term is the period which must be served in prison for the purposes of punishment and deterrence before the offender may be considered for release by the Parole Board. The guidance provides for various starting points depending on the type of case. In exceptionally serious cases the court may consider that a whole life order is justified (for offenders aged 21 or over), meaning that the offender faces spending the rest of his or her life in prison.

3. The statutory guidance currently provides for a 30 year starting point for the murder of a police or prison officer in the course of duty before the court then takes into account any further aggravating or mitigating factors in the particular case to arrive at the final minimum term, which may be higher or lower than the starting point.
What are the proposed changes?

4. The provisions in the Bill will raise the starting point for the murder of a police or prison officer in the course of duty to a whole life order. This means that the court should normally consider a whole life order in these cases, but they will retain the discretion to consider all the circumstances of each case in determining the final sentence.
 
You got a not unreasonable disagree for that comment (not from me I hasten to add) as there are various categories of manslaughter. Not all are the result of ‘causing death whilst committing a crime.

‘Unlawful act manslaughter’ is the one you needed.
My short point, was that the offence he suggested is already covered by the offence of manslaughter. As with everything law wise in this country it is much more complex.
 
My short point, was that the offence he suggested is already covered by the offence of manslaughter. As with everything law wise in this country it is much more complex.
Law is complex for a reason, as it’s based on precedent, do much so In criminal law. How ever the moon bowlers wanting to burn the convicted on a stake don’t get that.
 

ex_colonial

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I did a quick Google and was actually surprised how many were killed.
Here's a quick sample.
Nicola bone and fiona Hughes 2012
Gareth Browning 2013
Ian Dibell 2012.
Andrew Duncan 2013.
David Phillips 2015


Ah but for the virtue signallers like "H74" it doesn't fit in with their "woke" agenda and such travesties will be strictly ignored and they will try to rewrite history to prove their fallacious points, as is happening all around the country at the moment!!
 

ex_colonial

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On ROPs
Also, Boris and Priti cannot stay disengaged from this outcome.

They have the power to do something about the fact that the judges discretion was limited.

I think a sentence of 24 years would have been vastly more appropriate - although still short as far as this callsign is concerned.

Reducing it and then adding on the 2/3rds rule must have been a double body blow for the family.

When I consider that i've spent 10 years in further education, the ringleader has close to that for killing a man in the most horrible way. That 11 years also reflects the fact it was an attack on a Police Officer - had you or I been killed in the same way they'd have recieved even less. Bit of fake remorse on top? Yep, lesser again. Got done for theft too - don't worry young man, that sentence can run concurrently.

It really is sickening and it's firmly in our court to insist that something be done. Where is the Home Secretary? I haven't heard hide nor hair from her in months?

A sadistic joke at the expense of a family who not only raised a great guy, intent on going into public service, but one whom subsequently lived his life in a honourable manner seeing his aspirations come to fruition. How they behaved with such grace evades me. A superhuman effort. Police up and down this country must be reeling. Why even bother with sentences like this?

The guy who called it in must also feel terrible. All this for the sake of a quadbike. So many lives destroyed by a well known group who openly don't give a ****. When are they going to be gripped? Again, it's up to us to insist they are. At the ballot box if necessary.

Genuinely upset by this. It's a win for the bad guys again and one more step on the decline of this once respected nation.

agreed, especially with the bolded bit. The Govt. with their large majority should be looking at many pathetic examples of our legal system and amending it to tighten up all the idiotic loopholes that allow such travesties!
 
Ah but for the virtue signallers like "H74" it doesn't fit in with their "woke" agenda and such travesties will be strictly ignored and they will try to rewrite history to prove their fallacious points, as is happening all around the country at the moment!!
Woke? Me not likely, why didn’t you quote my call Sign?

What history am I trying to rewrite? All I’ve said and will continue saying is that capital punishment doesn’t work as a deterrent, it also costs more in total than 20+ years in jail. If it works as you claim, why are people still killing each other in countries that have it? Forgetting the issue that it becomes a political football.

Then we have @Gout Man wanting to go back to the Tudor times, burnt at the stake, hung drawn and quartered! Yet when I suggested he could move and live in a failed stat such as Syria, which isis More than likely are using those forms of executions he remains silent. No doubt you’d be happy pushing homosexuals of the roof of multi storey building?
 
agreed, especially with the bolded bit. The Govt. with their large majority should be looking at many pathetic examples of our legal system and amending it to tighten up all the idiotic loopholes that allow such travesties!

Alas, their biggest hurdle will be winning over the Police higher ups who fiercely resist any attempt to turn their 'service' back into a Force.
 

ex_colonial

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If this was a case where there was reasonable doubt over the accused people's guilt I would agree with you.

That is not the case. The driver of the car pled guilty. They killed PC Harper and the defence lawyers knew that.

As far as I am aware (and happy to be corrected) there is no requirement for a barrister to take on a case ie. they are able to refuse to defend someone. The defence therefore chose to be there. Edit - I was wrong, see below about the cab rank rule.

What if they had found some loophole in the arrests? Would they have done their job and exploited that, knowing by doing so they would be setting killers free?

It makes me very uneasy that a sane, well educated individual can effectively suspend their moral compass and argue that black is white just because they are being paid to do so. Somehow I don't think their dedication to ensuring everyone receives a fair trial would outweigh their morals if it had been their family member dragged behind a car until dead.


My bold ... precisely just as Blair passed the ridiculous "Human Rights act 1998" to enrich his wife, who helped found Matrix Chambers to specifically target this very badly written (according to some barrister friends of mine) piece of legislation. Many are avaricious/amoral creatures with no qualms re. the depths they will go to enrich themselves!!
 

ex_colonial

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Alas, their biggest hurdle will be winning over the Police higher ups who fiercely resist any attempt to turn their 'service' back into a Force.

so true, "common purpose" at work!
 

ex_colonial

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Their argument would be that the law is black and white and that everyone is equal.
How they sleep at night however..

And not being one to ever suggest such a thing but.
I do hope that PC Harpers colleagues from all over the UK hound these scumbags families for the rest of their days. I do hope that some of their family members end up badly hurt needing the assistance of the emergency services, I hope that "Assistance" arrives just a little bit late.


My bold sadly that would be classed by our "woke" legal/judicial establishment as a HATE CRIME and more evidence of the rise of the FAR RIGHT EXTREMISTS rather than the understandable reaction of normal, law abiding, everyday folk who are just fed up to the back teeth of certain groups continually ignoring/flouting our laws right, left & centre with no/little attempt at stopping them!!!
 

ex_colonial

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Let's try and keep it accurate shall we? You posted:



Not entirely the anecdotal passing off of another's opinion that you've insinuated.

once again your "woke" attitude missed the fact that I used i.e.
in other words · to put it another way · to rephrase it

Which is exactly what she was implying! Despite being born AFTER WW 2 and being a dyed in the wool party member.
I did not say I advocated it.
 
It could be argued that would be 'revenge' or 'retribution', not 'justice'.

Justice would be holding them in cells until they are the age that poor PC Harper would have been when he could have retired. At that point they could be considered for release if they demonstrated guilt and remorse for killing PC Harper.
The concept of justice vs revenge is an interesting one. As members of a civilised society, we’re often told that vengeance is irrational and ultimately counter productive, and yet nation states still regularly engage in it. I believe there is a fundamental need to redress a balance whilst at the same time sending out a message that despicable behaviour will be punished condignly, regardless of whatever the liberals tell us. Expressions such as “It won’t bring back the deceased“ are mealy mouthed and espoused by the weak and pusillanimous. I also don’t believe that it’s possible to suspend ones moral compass for the sake of doing a job vis a vis some of the discussions recently on this thread. Our moral compass is what defines us as human beings, the idea that one can suspend this at will for a job requirement is one step away from befehl ist befehl in my opinion.
 

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