Paying a 3% increase in NHS salaries... viable?

I remember seeing a report that they CPXed (TEWTed? ) a pandemic a handful of years ago which demonstrated that PPE Logistics was an NHS task, not a government task, and when it all went Pete Tong a year ago, I got flak on Facebook for pointing this out.

I'd just like to say this.

Nah nah nah nah nah.
I was part of a CPX on this. It led to a huge planning effort (well, a number of dedicated days) with simulations based on the COAs run to test them, before reworking and refining.

We eventually came up with "the plan" which had a number of options depending on the exact nature of the pandemic, virus, how NHS was coping etc.

It hasn't been followed. I am shocked, shocked I tell you.
 
As a former boss used to say, when asked about pay rises, " what more have you done, how much more profit have you brought into the company, to justify a rise?
There's a problem with treating things that aren't businesses as if they were businesses: they start to resemble businesses.

Remember the last time healthcare in the UK was universally a business? That was the sole reason we have an NHS>
 

syrup

LE
Can the NHS actually produce how many staff have been actively engaged in the battle against COVID.

I'm sure that while plenty have been and have worked flat out there have been some have had quite a decent time of it.
 

kandak01

Clanker
That would be an improvement on the current system where I pay a decent 5 figure sum in tax and NI every year yet haven't been able to see a GP for approaching 2 YEARS.
Be careful what you wish for.

The NHS is at least, an equitable way to deliver health care.

Insurance based schemes need insurance companies, who need a profit, so as you get older (and move from financially supporting the system to withdrawing money from it), are less likely to provide you with adequate cover.

The overall care you'll get from an insurance scheme is likely to be less than that you currently have, and likely to cost you more money, particularly if you're older, with pre-existing conditions.

It's understandable that younger, healthy folk see the NHS as a financial waste, but the vast, vast majority of money spent on healthcare comes in the last few years of life. Most people seem to recoup their several decades of NI payments during that time
 
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There's a problem with treating things that aren't businesses as if they were businesses: they start to resemble businesses.

Remember the last time healthcare in the UK was universally a business? That was the sole reason we have an NHS>
Without a way of measuring a person's input to an organisation, and thereby fitting them onto a payscale, how else does management decide their value?
Is the office cleaner more or less valuable than the stationery storeperson, the finance officer more or less important than the delivery driver?
It matters not whether the organisation is designed to make a profit or not, but you still need to rate individuals' skills and tasks against each other. Or go socialist and pay everyone in the organisation the same ( low) level of salary.
 

4(T)

LE
Be careful what you wish for.

The NHS is at least, an equitable way to deliver health care.

Insurance based schemes need insurance companies, who need a profit, so as you get older (and move from financially supporting the system to withdrawing money from it), are less likely to provide you with adequate cover.

The overall care you'll get from an insurance scheme is likely to be less than that you currently have, and likely to cost you more money, particularly if you're older, with pre-existing conditions.

It's understandable that younger, healthy folk see the NHS as a financial waste, but the vast, vast majority of money spent on healthcare comes in the last few years of life. Most people seem to recoup their several decades of NI payments during that time


In theory this is the sort of thing that could be balanced and managed by careful government legislation (in a fantasy world with a competent government, that is).

After all, the government has seen fit to interfere and regulate other forms of insurance, such as overruling the industry's relative risk measurement for male/female car drivers in the name of "equality".

If all the insurance companies are operating under the same constraints in the same market, then their products would have be budgeted to fit those constraints.

With healthcare, I imagine that would mean a guaranteed lifetime policy, with an individual's premiums constant throughout their lifetime, save for various inflation adjustments. I.e. the young more or less accrue protection for their own old age by "overpaying" when they are young - not unlike a mortgage payment, for example.


One of the many government dishonesties in the NHS and welfare system (and wider public sector) is that it is already relying on millions of people double-paying for healthcare. E.g. they pay tax for the NHS, but then have to pay private fees for reliable or even accessible healthcare. Look at the taxpayer fraud that is NHS dentistry, for example.
 
Be careful what you wish for.

The NHS is at least, an equitable way to deliver health care.

Insurance based schemes need insurance companies, who need a profit, so as you get older (and move from financially supporting the system to withdrawing money from it), are less likely to provide you with adequate cover.

The overall care you'll get from an insurance scheme is likely to be less than that you currently have, and likely to cost you more money, particularly if you're older, with pre-existing conditions.

It's understandable that younger, healthy folk see the NHS as a financial waste, but the vast, vast majority of money spent on healthcare comes in the last few years of life. Most people seem to recoup their several decades of NI payments during that time

I have had 4 angioplasties and 1 angiogram done since Dec 2017, giving me 7 stents. I need a bypass but it won't be done because only 1 bypass is not financially viable and my left ventricle is failing and part of the bottom of my heart is "dead".
I have no complaints about the NHS, even when delays have caused me heart attacks. I have nothing but praise for all the staff from cleaners to hca, to nurses, to physios, all the way to the Prof that saved my life again last March.
If it wasn't a state enterprise my kids and family would have the choice of paying for the ambulances, casualty care, ops, hospital stays, rehab.... and going bankrupt or letting me die. No insurance company will touch me.
Be careful what you wish for.

Edit phone
 
Lots of private sector people who worked through the pandemic not getting any rises

A lot did get furloughed for over a year though.
 
Without a way of measuring a person's input to an organisation, and thereby fitting them onto a payscale, how else does management decide their value?
Indeed, but as Adam Smith would be the first to argue, 'value' is not the same as 'profit' and the mechanisms for assessing value in a business environment are not automatically transferrable to non-business activities.
 

cowgoesmoo

Old-Salt
Be careful what you wish for.

The NHS is at least, an equitable way to deliver health care.

Insurance based schemes need insurance companies, who need a profit, so as you get older (and move from financially supporting the system to withdrawing money from it), are less likely to provide you with adequate cover.

The overall care you'll get from an insurance scheme is likely to be less than that you currently have, and likely to cost you more money, particularly if you're older, with pre-existing conditions.

It's understandable that younger, healthy folk see the NHS as a financial waste, but the vast, vast majority of money spent on healthcare comes in the last few years of life. Most people seem to recoup their several decades of NI payments during that time
Maybe I wasn't clear - I CANNOT get an appointment to see a GP and haven't been able to for nearly 2 years. As the NHS is not able to deliver ANY primary health care whatsoever to me anything must be better than the current system.
 

syrup

LE
A lot did get furloughed for over a year though.

Did anyone from the NHS get furloughed?

My doctors has practically been locked shut for the duration

You can't get appointments and prescriptions you've to put a note through the letterbox and it gets sent to the chemist you ask for
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
Maybe I wasn't clear - I CANNOT get an appointment to see a GP and haven't been able to for nearly 2 years. As the NHS is not able to deliver ANY primary health care whatsoever to me anything must be better than the current system.
Did anyone from the NHS get furloughed?

My doctors has practically been locked shut for the duration

You can't get appointments and prescriptions you've to put a note through the letterbox and it gets sent to the chemist you ask for
I bumped into one of the receptionists at my old surgery last week, she explained that a lot of people had left and found new GP practices that would see patients recently, she herself had left due to the way that the surgery was being run, no GP appts,not even via video, Nurse Practitoner appts only by video and she was sick of getting ranted at.
 
Indeed, but as Adam Smith would be the first to argue, 'value' is not the same as 'profit' and the mechanisms for assessing value in a business environment are not automatically transferrable to non-business activities.
In the case of the NHS, the value of an individual is their pay, a running cost for the financer.
If that financer, the taxpayer, decides the value is too high and can't or won't pay more, what then?
 
In the case of the NHS, the value of an individual is their pay, a running cost for the financer.
I wholly disagree and think you're entirely missing the point of value.

The value to the NHS is the skills they bring to healthcare provision. These are things that monetary sums entirely fail to capture.
 

Slime

LE
Did anyone from the NHS get furloughed?

My doctors has practically been locked shut for the duration

You can't get appointments and prescriptions you've to put a note through the letterbox and it gets sent to the chemist you ask for

Lots of NHS staff had better than furlough.
Many just stayed at home, on full pay, even though the work they usually did still needed to be done.

This just meant clinics and treatment of the sick was halted.
 
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