Paying a 3% increase in NHS salaries... viable?

It’s the Police Force society deserves in some aspects, so you are telling me that those that join havent done due diligence in speaking to serving officers, thought it was going to be all thief taking and medals?
If it’s as bad as you say why is there a waiting list for those wishing to do it for free? All the same issues with out the as you suggest mediocre money?

You cannot replicate the job, by going out on an observer shift, which is mandatory whilst applying or chatting to someone for a couple of hours, when you are dead set on joining and caught up in it all.

In fact for the first few years, those things are actually quite exciting but ultimately unsustainable and what you come to hate in the job. A decade ago, you could swap roles and have a relative break in a project team or a specialist post, those jobs were cut during austerity and everyone was permanently frontline and shift working unless you were temporarily restricted through injury.

People watch the tv and like those aspiring to join the military are willing to a certain extent to accept the pay and conditions in order to do the job they think it’s going to be.

Then reality sets in and it’s decision time. Recruitment might not be an issue at the moment, however the majority joining are kids with no life skills or experience, as opposed to older people willing to take a pay cut, however retention it definitely becoming a problem.
 
In Scotland, you can book a weekend's overtime at 1728hrs on Friday and phone in sick at 1729hrs (1 minute later). You get paid your overtime for the weekend and what happens is they then do contract work in a neighbouring Trust at the weekend, so get paid twice (sickness and working hours for the agency). Contractually, they are allowed to do this as UNISON negotiated the national contracts. You cant get sacked for fraud!

I'm with DD on this, I find it incredible individuals aren't being hauled over a disciplinary for such behaviour.
 

Slime

LE
As opposed to going to The Alps downhill skiing for weeks at taxpayers expense, or playing sport on a Wednesday afternoon and going in The Mess on a Friday afternoon.

If many NHS staff had ‘as little’ downtime as you just mentioned there they would leave straight away. :)

The NHS is a massive employer, and the majority of staff aren’t clinical.
The skiving, malingering or just simply not bothering to do the work a person is paid for is rife……..This means we should never consider the NHS as just one thing :)

There is a VERY good reason the phrase ‘The NHS, there to employ the unemployable’ is a thing.

Even if we ignore the theft and fraud the NHS staff are well known for, and even if we ignore their shambolic IT or procurement, we are still left with large amounts of staff who often do very little.

As I sit here I can think of one staff member who is off work right now as they don’t like someone they work with.
They have been off work for nine months out of the last twelve…….But haven’t actually been sick or ill in any of that time. When in work they have told their boss that one day per week they will be doing things they want to do (not work related things), ’on top’ of their daily walk around the building to chat to friends.

An example of another is:
First hour in work, catch up on personal social media.
Then later go to work canteen for breakfast.
Stop mid morning for a donut delivery, ordered in work time and eaten in work time.
Obviously, and properly stop for lunch.
Mid afternoon go for a chat in an adjoining office.
One hour from the end of the paid day, change into running clothes, then spend 45 minutes on personal social media or on the phone to family.

The above two people do all of this openly, and with the managements knowledge.
 
That can be said about every line of work.

I am not here to have a never ending debate with you about this, I am merely telling you my experience. If you don’t agree or like it, then fair enough.

0% pay rise in a year of predicted inflation of 3.5% coupled with an average rise over 11 years of 1% couple with a crippling pension change, means that the job is no longer as attractive to stay in. Add to that a decade of swingeing staff cuts and it’s no wonder that people are leaving.

That’s my POV. You don’t need to accept it.
 
You cannot replicate the job, by going out on an observer shift, which is mandatory whilst applying or chatting to someone for a couple of hours, when you are dead set on joining and caught up in it all.

In fact for the first few years, those things are actually quite exciting but ultimately unsustainable and what you come to hate in the job. A decade ago, you could swap roles and have a relative break in a project team or a specialist post, those jobs were cut during austerity and everyone was permanently frontline and shift working unless you were temporarily restricted through injury.

People watch the tv and like those aspiring to join the military are willing to a certain extent to accept the pay and conditions in order to do the job they think it’s going to be.

Then reality sets in and it’s decision time. Recruitment might not be an issue at the moment, however the majority joining are kids with no life skills or experience, as opposed to older people willing to take a pay cut, however retention it definitely becoming a problem.
Which Force are you representing with the poor retention? where do these kids get life experience from?
 

skeetstar

Old-Salt
Then management need sacking. The Duke said there are no bad soldiers only bad officers.
I was private sector, but if any of my team tried anything close to that behaviour they would be got rid of.

PS this in reply to slime above.
 
If many NHS staff had ‘as little’ downtime as you just mentioned there they would leave straight away. :)

The NHS is a massive employer, and the majority of staff aren’t clinical.
The skiving, malingering or just simply not bothering to do the work a person is paid for is rife……..This means we should never consider the NHS as just one thing :)

There is a VERY good reason the phrase ‘The NHS, there to employ the unemployable’ is a thing.

Even if we ignore the theft and fraud the NHS staff are well known for, and even if we ignore their shambolic IT or procurement, we are still left with large amounts of staff who often do very little.

As I sit here I can think of one staff member who is off work right now as they don’t like someone they work with.
They have been off work for nine months out of the last twelve…….But haven’t actually been sick or ill in any of that time. When in work they have told their boss that one day per week they will be doing things they want to do (not work related things), ’on top’ of their daily walk around the building to chat to friends.

An example of another is:
First hour in work, catch up on personal social media.
Then later go to work canteen for breakfast.
Stop mid morning for a donut delivery, ordered in work time and eaten in work time.
Obviously, and properly stop for lunch.
Mid afternoon go for a chat in an adjoining office.
One hour from the end of the paid day, change into running clothes, then spend 45 minutes on personal social media or on the phone to family.

The above two people do all of this openly, and with the managements knowledge.

I am not defending The NHS, as I said, I would love a 3% increase. However, a military website, needs to accept that value for money is debatable all over.
 
I'm with DD on this, I find it incredible individuals aren't being hauled over a disciplinary for such behaviour.

scary isn't it. I left the meetings I had in complete shock. The purpose of the two meetings where these figures came from was to discuss absence management in the NHS.
 
scary isn't it. I left the meetings I had in complete shock. The purpose of the two meetings where these figures came from was to discuss absence management in the NHS.

Do The MOD produce sickness and downgrading figures to compare to other public sector organisations?
 
Ive said too much as it is, so we’ll just have to put this down as ‘bloke shouting on internet who won’t/can’t reveal the source’ and move on.

facilities costs on agency are very high as they are dealing with contaminated and regulated disposals. That’s a bit more content on one of the points I made.

the salary and pension numbers O quoted earlier so stack up. If someone digs deep enough they should find the data.

numbers are scary

Fair enough, though I can see the absence figures for every department in my VERY LARGE health board and there's nothing like you've described. I've also been involved in disciplinary proceedings as previously described.

Must be another HB your source is from.
 
Do The MOD produce sickness and downgrading figures to compare to other public sector organisations?

Absence Benchmarks are between 3-5%. The costs are scary.

In the NHS, it varies across departments. If people knew the real costs they would be mortified. What's most depressing about it is no-one gives shit because its the public sector gravy train.

I had one the other day in Local Government. Just under £6m of cashable savings in 3 years. Return on Investment of 3 months. The response from the HR Director? 'This isn't a priority for the council'.

It's worse in healthcare.
 
Fair enough, though I can see the absence figures for every department in my VERY LARGE health board and there's nothing like you've described. I've also been involved in disciplinary proceedings as previously described.

Must be another HB your source is from.

The salary costs of 400k p.a. for Scotland are correct (pre-Covid). That gives you a more representative feel for the costs across the sector in the geography, and probably fits with your view/experience. I cant quote agency costs to cover the absenteeism, but the number is huge.
 
Absence Benchmarks are between 3-5%. The costs are scary.

In the NHS, it varies across departments. If people knew the real costs they would be mortified. What's most depressing about it is no-one gives shit because its the public sector gravy train.

I had one the other day in Local Government. Just under £6m of cashable savings in 3 years. Return on Investment of 3 months. The response from the HR Director? 'This isn't a priority for the council'.

It's worse in healthcare.

Does The MOD produce sickness figures to compare?
 
An example of another is:
First hour in work, catch up on personal social media.
Then later go to work canteen for breakfast.
Stop mid morning for a donut delivery, ordered in work time and eaten in work time.
Obviously, and properly stop for lunch.
Mid afternoon go for a chat in an adjoining office.
One hour from the end of the paid day, change into running clothes, then spend 45 minutes on personal social media or on the phone to family.

I never knew that I worked for the NHS.
 
Do The MOD produce sickness and downgrading figures to compare to other public sector organisations?
I seem to recall they did. I can’t remember the exact numbers but, in comparison to OGDs (other government departments) they weren’t too good or too bad.
 
I am sure they did, and thought that they would give it a go. When the reality of shifts, confrontation, massive paperwork, constant criticism and non existent pay rise coupled with constant criticism hits home, they make a decision on whether to stay.

People generally understand the concept of shifts, violence, paperwork etc, but like seeing your friend get blown up by an IED in Afghan, it doesn’t become real until you live it.

If you even out all the pay rises for police over the last 11 years, it amounts to 1% per year. Effectively a pay cut when coupled with pension contribution increases etc.

We will eventually end up with a police force like the military, most people leaving after a few years with a few staying on and trouble recruiting the right standard of people.

If that’s what the country want, fair enough.
It would help the police case if only they didn't have such a woeful record of actually reducing crime, bringing criminals to account, and leaving the law abiding in peace.
Multiple failures to deal with child rape gangs in a particular demography, inter gang stabbings in another, investigating and prosecuting rape allegations, etc ad nauseam.
That, just maybe, is why the police don't get pay rises.
 
They will do as the data will be available in JPA. Whether it is public domain information is a different matter.

We regularly see sickness figures for other public sector orgs published. Let’s see how the military compare.
 
I seem to recall they did. I can’t remember the exact numbers but, in comparison to OGDs (other government departments) they weren’t too good or too bad.

I have never seen it on the news or in the papers compared to the police or other orgs.

I have seen numerous articles about obesity in the military, which is strange.
 

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