PAYD vs The Good Old Days

What is better - Old School Messing or Pay-As-You-Dine

  • The old method of catering

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Save-as-you-starve (PAYD)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't care. I'm married/Live-out/Civvy

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
At a PAYD breifing yesterday we were informed by the contracters (Aramark) that they have to pay VAT on the food they purchase, where as in the old days HMF didn't pay the VAT.

Aramark are using this as an excuse for providing sub-standard food and sub-standard service. This really grips my sh1t.

I firmly believe that PAYD (and JPA as well) have the possibility of being the most damaging thing to hit all personnel outside of ops in the history of ever.

I know the justification given is that 'this is what we asked for', but I for one don't remember ever asking for a civilian company to rip us off and fcuk us around when all we want is a decent sized portion of scran.

My outrage-o-meter is off the chart :x

So, my question, ladies and gents, is:
Is this talk about VAT real, or is this a convinient excuse?
If the VAT tale is true, does anyone else feel p1ssed off that the gobmint is taxing our food like this?
Does ANYONE within HM Forces think PAYD is a good idea and prefer what we have now to what we had previous?
 
#2
Can't make a comment about PAYD but can vouch for the old system. Hardly ever complained in 22 years of the ACC food and at the end of the day they were all part of the same team and could comprehend the language (be it verbal or a smack in the MT).
Would not like to be part of HM Forces now I am sad to say. They definately were the good old days (1980 - 2002).
 
#3
jimnicebutdim said:
At a PAYD breifing yesterday we were informed by the contracters (Aramark) that they have to pay VAT on the food they purchase, where as in the old days HMF didn't pay the VAT.

Aramark are using this as an excuse for providing sub-standard food and sub-standard service. This really grips my sh1t.

I firmly believe that PAYD (and JPA as well) have the possibility of being the most damaging thing to hit all personnel outside of ops in the history of ever.

I know the justification given is that 'this is what we asked for', but I for one don't remember ever asking for a civilian company to rip us off and fcuk us around when all we want is a decent sized portion of scran.

My outrage-o-meter is off the chart :x

So, my question, ladies and gents, is:
Is this talk about VAT real, or is this a convinient excuse?
If the VAT tale is true, does anyone else feel p1ssed off that the gobmint is taxing our food like this?
Does ANYONE within HM Forces think PAYD is a good idea and prefer what we have now to what we had previous?
Hmm, sounds complete bollocks to me- VAT is supposed to be luxary items only. I was in Makro the other day and most food is VAT free- looking at the reciept bacon, pizza, fruit, veg and dairy products were all VAT code 0- ie no VAT on them.
 
#4
I believe that under the old system MOD bought food which is zero rated for VAT as tothepub has said.
Aramark are caterers and will have to included VAT within the price of the meals that they sell.

You could argue that Aramark don’t add any value to their raw ingredients and should on those grounds be exempt Value Added Tax.
 
#5
bluebells said:
I believe that under the old system MOD bought food which is zero rated for VAT as tothepub has said.
Aramark are caterers and will have to included VAT within the price of the meals that they sell.

You could argue that Aramark don’t add any value to their raw ingredients and should on those grounds be exempt Value Added Tax.
:D I think that about sums it all up...
 
#6
[/quote]Aramark - that's great they did the prisoners canteen when I worked in the prison service - they are excellent at cocking things up and over-charging. Good luck!
Jarrod

Had to do a double take, I thought you had said' they are excellent at cooking things'
 
#7
The food is cheap but just wait till they start increasing the prices.... Useless complaining about the food, as they are civies and dont care!

Also no more tea and toast inn the mess!
 
#8
Well they are a naughty, duplicitous lot then. They are no doubt reclaiming VAT on the things they buy (offset to tax) are they not? So why are they passing that cost on, except to make more nett profit...
 
#9
Raw ingredients are zero rated for VAT purposes, and if they are prepared by in-service personnel (i.e. mod staff) there is no vat payable.

Once contractors become involved (and I have had to spend too much of my life negotiating with those cnuts at sodexho, ess, granada, etc - they change their names every 18 months) then they put vat on the food.

This vat is due at point of supply (i.e. at the mess), but the MOD get that back in non PAYD establishments. With PAYD coming in, the VAT has to be oaid for by personnel, so there's no prospect of avoiding it. The money that's collected in VAT gets paid over to HMRC, and can't be reclaimed - allegedly.

This is what I am being told, anyway, and it seems to check out with HMRC. They have told me that there is a parallel with a normal civvy restaurant, where diners have to pay VAT on prepared food, but shoppers don't have to pay VAT on raw ingredients.

And no, I don't think it is proper or fair, but they threatened to do this at our mess and we had an accountant on team who looked into things.
 
#10
According to this, PAYD is not a disaster.

AG. PS4/Col Health. Catering, Retail and Leisure (CRL) is not a disaster. PAYD is being well received in UK, but not so well in GE. However, it is evident that the service provided in GE is at least as good as that in the best sites in UK. Unit bars and PRIs have not closed, but certain restrictions have been negotiated with the Garrison as part of the wider
CRL solution – this ensures that the contractor is able to invest in the facilities.

Contractors cannot refuse to serve the core menu, which provides 3300 calories and a balanced diet. Catering services are judged to be generally well received, although some criticism has been received over portion sizes of protein items. However, portion sizes are laid down in JSP 404 and these have not changed under PAYD.

Restaurant usage has fallen; unsurprising, as PAYD was meant to introduce choice and soldiers increasingly have access to self-catering facilities but numbers are now picking up. The Army has never been able to dictate what soldiers ate, even when they used the "Cookhouse".
Current evidence would suggest that Gainshare (or Welfare Return as it applies in Germany) is beginning to generate funding. The last Gainshare payout to Elmpt was 71,000 euros. Kent paid out £22,000 in its first year.
Retail and leisure are judged to be under-funded and, in the case of retail, to be uncompetitive. NAAFI does not have the buying power to compete with the GE High Street but nonetheless offers choice. Further investment in leisure facilities is being discouraged by the continued operation of
competing unit clubs. All Garrisons are issued with a potted version of their own SLAs and further advice is available through the CoC.
 
#11
I never served with PAYD so I can't comment. But I do remember being able to get bacon butties and a brew out of hours at most cook houses, if you were "on duty".
Aramark seem to be doing OK for themselves though!
Maybe you would like to leave a message for their UK’s chief executive Andrew Main below.

http://www.kitchenrat.com/2007/08/aramark-takes-over-hbos-cateri-1.html
 
#12
Well having used PAYD I was wondering how you know if you are being charged VAT or not. No receipts and nothing on the prices saying one thing or the other.

Being in Germany, are we charged VAT? What happened to 'Tax Free'? Or if we are, as we are only offered one official source of meals, shouldn't we be able to claim it back?
 
#13
Don't know if vat applies to military serving overseas, but the idea of PAYD is surely that you can decide to dine elsewhere if you want to?

Worth checking though. As for the official lie of propaganda, nobody believes that BS. The civvies who administer it are, on the whole, a great bunch - I have no problems with them. Just with the companies who administer it and the cosy system of pathetically audited kick-backs they employ.

Our mess is non PAYD and I'm told they are allowed just £1.78/day for the cost of raw ingredients/person (excluding labour/overheads etc) by the MOD. You don't get much to eat from Sainsburies for that sort of money.
 
#14
When I was single, it used to bug me that I was getting charged for food when I hardly ever ate in the cookhouse. I believe that PAYD has addressed this.

As to the standard of food .... if it is sh1t, complain and complain and complain - there must be complaint books available; don't just put up with it. Other than that, vote wth your feet and when the contactor ends up cooking no meals, questions will start getting asked at Bde, Div and higher.
 
#15
pyrogenica said:
Don't know if vat applies to military serving overseas, but the idea of PAYD is surely that you can decide to dine elsewhere if you want to?
To a point. Firstly time doesn't alway give you the choice of eating somewhere off camp. Secondly, everywhere on camp is supplied and run by the same firm that provides PAYD..... so, no choice. But don't you dare use that word 'monopoly' 8O
 
#16
£sd said:
As to the standard of food .... if it is sh1t, complain and complain and complain - there must be complaint books available; don't just put up with it. Other than that, vote wth your feet and when the contactor ends up cooking no meals, questions will start getting asked at Bde, Div and higher.
Lots of complaints about cold food due to queues to pay for the 'hot' food chosen, any extras added to the price but paying full core price even when items that are part of the core menu are not available..... oh yes, and one of our toms getting charged €6.25 for a 'norgie' of tea when training out in the field!

Voting with the feet is possible for evening meals, but not really an option for breakfast or sometimes lunch. They have a captive market and have topped it up with pads, families, civvy workers amongst others who are quite happy to have a cheap meal. Did I mention that you aren't allowed to call it a 'monopoly'
 
#17
I personally love the PAYD system, not because of the food in the cookhouse but because I get a extra £100+ in my account every month and cook whatever I feel like having.
 
#18
i love the payd as i dont pay for what i dont eat however on a friday on the old scheme we had funtime feeding as a whole regi's money for 60 blokes scoff!!

peaks and troughs i guess. However i'm sure most of the blokes posting would have served over 10 yrs and according to PAYD it was you lot that wanted it!!

our blokes are piling it on now though!!
 
#19
Fair points, Plant-Pilot.

I have serious concerns about the way these contracts are negotiated, especially given the dubious background of the contracting companies concerned.

The company known as Sodexho has some extremely dubious other identities, Granada, Eurest, ESS, etc, etc. I don't think I've seen one of these companies actually registered in the UK, they're usually based in places like Cyprus, Panama and so forth. All sounds a bit dodgy to me.

And dodgy is a good way to describe their recruitment policies. I am aware of at least one camp where only a handful of the staff have gone through B/C, and a few are known criminals of one sort or another. Not sure it's a good idea to have unknowns around when people are talking shop in the bar!

Bottom line, I've dined in some exceptional messes that are PAYD, and I've dined in some crap messes that aren't. I don't like the monopolistic way that these contractors run things, I think the contract periods are far too long, I think the staff are paid crap money and therefore some of the staff are - shall we just say - amongst the least employable in the area, the upper echelon management of these civil contractors are workshy unemployable sociopaths and I think someone is getting a serious back-hander out of all of this. It's about time the NAO picked up on this scam.

But it's progress, in much the same way that closing down military hospitals is supposed to be "progress", and the only way to challenge this is through the mess council and bringing political pressure to bear.

As for civvies taking advantage, ask yourself why our local old bill get mess membership and pop in for almost free nosh when they get paid a substantial meals allowance? Don't mind social members or families, but not these scroungers.
 
#20
pyrogenica said:
Fair points, Plant-Pilot.

I have serious concerns about the way these contracts are negotiated, especially given the dubious background of the contracting companies concerned.
Doesn't really matter, the ones who sorted out the contracts are usually long gone before they are implemented, if not retired. Some cynics would say employed by the companies who have the contracts..... but not me.

pyrogenica said:
But it's progress, in much the same way that closing down military hospitals is supposed to be "progress", and the only way to challenge this is through the mess council and bringing political pressure to bear.
You are right, although I wouldn't exactly call it 'progress' in the form delivered. As for 'challenging this', the chances of changing something once it is in place is going to take many many years..... so we are fudged.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
taffridge Current Affairs, News and Analysis 34
short-fuse Weapons, Equipment & Rations 7
lynxeffectLOL! Aviation 10

Similar threads

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top