Pay less tax: hand back your handouts

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Brick, Nov 22, 2009.

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  1. Now on the face of it seems to be a rather sensible article that basically says why keep giving benefits payments out to those that don't need them when you could just scrap them and cut taxes instead? The figures they quote if correct are pretty interesting. Assuming that they are and you managed to cut them by fifty percent at £15 billion via means testing, that would result in possible tax cut of 4p on the basic rate of income tax.

    Although at the same time I can also fully understand the whole I've paid in so I want to get something out of it sentiment. So is means testing lots more benefits- providing the cash is rolled through into tax cuts, or just cutting them completely like tax credits, the way foward? Because on the face of it it seems pretty tempting unless I'm missing any major pitfalls people can see.
  2. I do agree with the child benefit. If you choose to have chidren then you should be able to afford them ! I chose to have my tribe and earn enough to support them - why the Gov't give me an extra £150 a month for the pleasure I don't know !

    Another thing is the Maternity Grant. They give you £400 to buy prams etc although this is not receipt based so you could buy anything you wanted ! Unbelievable.
  3. Biped

    Biped LE Book Reviewer

    Non, non, NON! We will not give up our rebate!
  4. My father has just been told that he will receive the £250 tax-free heating allowance. Now, that is a very nice present for him, and it goes to all pensioners whether or not they are paying zero income tax to 40% tax.

    But how much does that lot cost to administer? Surely, it would be cheaper to consolidate it with the Old Age Pension and therefore make it taxable. It would then be worth 40% more to a pensioner at the bottom of the scale than it would be to Terry Wogan or Bruce Forsyth (sorry, Messrs Wogan and Forsyth, but I only used your names because you are the only wealthy pensioners I can immediately think of).

  5. I would quite happily give up child benefit and tax credits, but only after our government stops giving billions in aid to countries which don't need it.
  6. the_boy_syrup

    the_boy_syrup LE Book Reviewer

    Wouldn't happen
    You give up your handouts and expect to pay a little bit less tax
    Exept the Goverment needs that tax
    So they just put the tax on other things so your no better off
    They hand the money they got back from you to someone whose no intention of ever working

    Get those lazy arrseholes up and working and then I'lll give some back
  7. Child benefit is not just the cash, it's also HRP for your NI - pretty important if one of you gives up work to look after the children. The extra cost in adding bureaucracy to preserve HRP could outweigh any cash savings. Though I suppose you could freeze the amount , this reducing cost over time, and load more onto the child tax credit system. And scrap the 'baby bonus' whilst you're about it.
  8. The argument is fundamentally flawed. The contributory benefits system was meant to be an actuarial plan but Beveridge etc got the sums wrong.

    If he had got the sums right then in time the means tested system would not now be paying out the huge sums it is.

    Postwar means tested benefits did not get their own central record. The contributory system (National Insurance) got a central record that means tested had access to.

    Then the routine anti fraud provisions of the means tested system were worked out to be based on reliance upon the NI central record.

    In my experience one group who exploited this were and possibly still are the IRA. In their case they used single mothers whose "Liable relative" (the absent father who should have been paying to maintain his kids) had no National Insurance record or who was not named by the claimant.

    In such cases there was no central record of the claim on what was then called Supplementary Benefit. So the case I have previously mentioned on threads. 1976. But for an anon letter and an ex Para working not in fraud but as caller section EO the fraud would have been undetected. But for the anon letter it was undetactable by the system.

    We found she had 43 addresses across England all with a claim in payment. The Wimbledon fraud address was in suspect use as an IRA bomb cell hence the realization who was involved in the scam to front up 43 rented house deposits. In modern day terms she was taking half a million per year from the system.

    One of the ironies (I am still querying) is that measures to develop computerized anti fraud systems early 80s seems to have employed a man from the area where we know the fraud was recruited. Thanet.

    The suspect concerned happened to be an associate of a man with a forged REME Record who got work with Reliance Security at Deal Barracks 1988.

    Anyway the benefits system cannot be solved by continually modifying it and adding to it. The foundation is flawed.

    It follows that if you reduce the number of benefits recipients all that remains is the same flawed system paying out to fewer people. Then the troubles will accrue again. The benefits dependant people who have already overtaken waged working people for income will start to close the gap on the middle class who gave up their unibersal benefits like Child Benefit. Then the Middle Class will rightly want to protect the differential. The working class for years have experienced what it is like to work to be nio better off than the dole scrounging neighbour.

    The middle class would be next to experience that.

    The system needs root and branch reform. Abandon Mational Insurance and Means tested benefits.

    Create one government revenue dept. Everyone would have a tax card (so a national ID card scheme is not needed). The dept annually would require an income and, below thresholds, expenditure return. The revenue system then decides the tax position ... if you come into tax you pay tax. If you fall under theshold you get paid out up to threshold over the next year. Then sack all the public servants in housing benefits, council tax benefits, jobcentres, social security offices.

    As we know the nemesis of public sector was Maggie Thatcher ? Cobblers. The above idea was put to the tory govt in the 80s and it seems the iron lady baulked at sacking all those public sector parasites.

    The other thing with such a system is that no tax card no can work no tac card no benefits. Then start tackling who is in this country illegally.
  9. I will happily give up any benefits but why should I when the level profligacy from the Government is so high.

    Every penny not in my pocket will no doubt be freed up for Quangos, feckless parents, unable to work through injury morons, NEETs or worse.

    Sadly we need wholsesale change in the way we run the country for things to get any better. Smaller Government but with punch and which ceases to worry about focus groups or promises and does the right thing for a change.
  10. N.B socialism is not the right thing and a sufficient amount should always be spent on defence.
  11. Oh and adding to above take tax cards off people as they leave UK. One effect stop all those who return to their own country carrying on drawing working tax credit and child tax credit from UK etc
  12. But I'm entitult, innit?

    Sorry, I don't know how to type a middle-class accent.
  13. If I were Chancellor this would be part of my fiscal plan:

    Income TAX

    40% Tax threshold raised to £55k plus
    30% Tax threshold introduced and set at £40k plus
    20% Tax threshold increased to £10k plus
    10% Tax threshold re-introduced and set at £5k plus
    All earnings below £5k Non Taxable

    Inheritance tax increased to £1-million plus


    All purchases over £5000 plus at 22.5%
    All purchases between £1000k - £4.999 at 20%
    All purchases between £500- £999.99 at 18%
    All purchases below £500 at 15%

    VED (Road tax) abolished and instead and additional £0.05 per litre to be charged on all fuel.
    Registered companies with more than 4 people on the pay roll to get Company Fuel free of VAT

    TEXT Tax of £0.01 per text message sent.
    Email Tax of £0.01 per email.
    BBC TV Licence funding to be limited to factual programs, sport's or media. Any other BBC channels to be paid for by advertising.

    Child benefit only payable for the first Two children in ANY family.
    Child benefit to be means Tested and not payable to family income exceeding £60k

    Tax credits limited until the child claimed for reaches the age of 8
    CSA Abolished and all maintenance payments to be set by the concerned family in court

    Education Maintenance Allowance to be scrapped.
    University fees increased in-line with the EU and USA average

    Personal pension contributions allowances to increased
    Cash Individual Savings Account limits to be increased to £6k pa

    Stealth taxes to be eradicated over a period of 7 years.

    State pension to be increased to a percentage in line with the national average wage.
    Public Sector pensions to be scrapped and a contributory pension introduced.

    There, fecking easy..
    :D :D :D
  14. Thank fu ck I live abroad!
  15. But then you might have a pretty dire situation where only the Benefit class can breed.

    No working class, no middle class reproduction, means a never ending increase in those that aren't going to work.