Pay c*ck up - Whats the sketch?

poo_finger

Old-Salt
So I'm currently a member of the Army Reserve and am currently using the position as a primary source of income whilst in between jobs.

Post course back in Apr 16 I realised that I was being paid LSA at the wrong level, and being a former Regular with 1500+ LSA days obviously enquired as to why this was.

An iSupport was raised and this was rectified I believe, and I was under the impression that I was receiving LSA back paid at the appropriate level from when I rejoined as a Reservist (Dec 14) since then i've acrued quite a few days away!

The Unit HR staff have conducted an audit and seen that I've been paid rather a large amount over the last few months, whilst Mr Poo Finger just carried on thinking this was all arrears that I was owed it has transpired that something is clearly askew.

As yet we are none the wiser as to why this has happened or who is responsible, but this is really going to f*ck me financially should it all be recovered in a oner at source.

Can anyone give me any advice as to how this is likely to pan out?! And if there is anything I can do to help my current situation?

Thanks in advance.
 

HE117

LE
What you need to do is assume they will claw back any overpayment and plan accordingly.. Bank the surplus and sit on it if you can!

Even if you want to play the "Well I've spent it all" ploy, it is unlikely they will let you keep an overpayment in the long term, so you need to make sure you are not going to suffer as a result of their fuckwittery.. It may not be fair in your eyes, but it is what will happen.!

Make sure you keep copies of everything you have done and ensure your chain of command is aware of what is going on..
 

poo_finger

Old-Salt
So had a look at JSP 754 02.066 & 02.067 which seems to relate closely to my case.

Recoveries from Pay

"02.0606. Pay will be recovered from a Service individual’s pay account in the following circumstances:
a. An Overissue of Pay Has Been Made. This usually occurs as a result of the late notification of an event that would affect an individual’s level of entitlement to basic pay or allowances such as a reduction in rank.
b. A Service Individual Has Been Under Charged. As with 02.0606a this would normally occur as the result of late notification of an event that would affect the level of charges payable by a Service individual, such as food and accommodation charges."


"02.0607. Recovery of Public Debt Exceeding 4 Days’ Gross Pay. Where a public debt is greater than 4 days’ gross pay, even when this debt is made up of individual debts which when aggregated total more than 4 days’ gross pay, or the individual is already having a previous public debt recovered from pay, the debt will appear on the next two pay slips as public debt (or added to existing public debt) to allow time for either volunteering to pay off at a greater rate or to object to recovery. They have two pay periods within which they may appeal against the debt(s), or for them to volunteer to pay the debt(s) off at a rate greater than 4 days’ gross pay per month (see 02.0608) If the individual unsuccessfully appeals against the debt(s) and does not elect to pay off the debt(s) at a rate greater than 4 days’ gross pay per month, then the debt(s) will be recovered at a maximum rate of 4 days’ gross pay per month and the outstanding debt(s) will be carried forward for recovery in succeeding months also at a rate not greater than 4 days’ gross pay per month."

So reading into this can I assume my overpaid LSA (If of course I have been overpaid) is classed as a public debt and can only be recovered in a sum equal to 4 days pay per month until the sum owed is fully recovered.
And if this is the case I won't begin to pay this back then until the end of Nov?

There's no clarification on if this policy differs for Regulars and Reserves and is this automatically applied by payroll or should I anticipate receiving the square route of sweet FA at the end of the month?
 
Give JPA a ring on;

MoD 94560 3600 Freephone 0800 085 3600
Civilian 0141 224 3600 Overseas +44 141 224 3600

 

Discovery001

Old-Salt
I was over paid for 12 months, they made the mistake to 18 of us on a course while upgrading. They tried to claw in back, we refused as they didn't go though the correct channels and I quote, we excepted the pay in all faith that it was correct when we passed said course, they threaten us with all sorts, went to legal advice, sent chapter and verse to the pay guros, letter received by all 18. No further action we f***ed up. Read the small print you might have a case, if not as man before said, shove it in the best interest account and then pay back on time when required
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
He is a reservist, if they get silly he will be working weekends for free, if the amount is worth it, jack it in, go get a solicitor and sue them for constructive dismissal or at least threaten them. they cant take money from your account only garnish future earnings! If they value you so little to refuse to admit their mistake then take it as a sign!
 
Buy Premium Bonds with the estimated surplus, your boat might come in, and you can easily convert them back to cash in slow time if you have to repay MOD.

Have only experienced being underpaid in the past when mobilised and suffering the vagaries of HMRC tax penalties having been pushed into higher tax bracket, as I returned to my civilian job and the delayed pay was all dumped into a new tax year. It took 2 years to argue the toss with HMRC with no help from MOD.

I've also been screwed by DIO in the past, suggesting underpayments needed to be addressed for SFA after a delayed grading decision (made 3 years after the property had been vacated), but they eventually came to terms with the 'swivel' technique after a solicitor's letter.
 

poo_finger

Old-Salt
Ugly, exactly... the prospect of working completely for free is obviously not an attractive one, there is absolutely no potential whatsoever for them taking it back out of my current account so i'm not worried about that, but like you stated future AR earnings can definitely be 'adjusted'.

I've flagged this up to the right people so hopefully i've got some protection, but as alluded to earlier the JSP says a maximum deduction of 4 days pay per month so considering i'm doing a fair few MTD's at the moment i'm hoping that is what they'll take, until the debt is paid (if of course there is one as it has yet to be investigated properly)

I'll give JPAC a call tomorrow and see if they can shed any light on this as my unit HR staff are currently viewing me as the devil after mentioning the words 'Service Complaint' and 'Civilian Legal Advice'.
 

jim30

LE
Make sure you get good advice from someone. I was overpaid in my last month pf mobilisation (demobbed on 3rd, got paid for a full month despite being told they would fix it). Was not impressed when the Chicksands admin team told me I had to pay back the gross amount and reclaim tax from HMRC...
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Ugly, exactly... the prospect of working completely for free is obviously not an attractive one, there is absolutely no potential whatsoever for them taking it back out of my current account so i'm not worried about that, but like you stated future AR earnings can definitely be 'adjusted'.

I've flagged this up to the right people so hopefully i've got some protection, but as alluded to earlier the JSP says a maximum deduction of 4 days pay per month so considering i'm doing a fair few MTD's at the moment i'm hoping that is what they'll take, until the debt is paid (if of course there is one as it has yet to be investigated properly)

I'll give JPAC a call tomorrow and see if they can shed any light on this as my unit HR staff are currently viewing me as the devil after mentioning the words 'Service Complaint' and 'Civilian Legal Advice'.
Stand your ground, you can always transfer if they are being awkward!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Make sure you get good advice from someone. I was overpaid in my last month pf mobilisation (demobbed on 3rd, got paid for a full month despite being told they would fix it). Was not impressed when the Chicksands admin team told me I had to pay back the gross amount and reclaim tax from HMRC...
Jim, they cant ask for repayment in one hit and they cant make deductions without a signed agreement. Its illegal. They should sort it and the tax themselves!
 
He is a reservist, if they get silly he will be working weekends for free, if the amount is worth it, jack it in, go get a solicitor and sue them for constructive dismissal or at least threaten them. they cant take money from your account only garnish future earnings! If they value you so little to refuse to admit their mistake then take it as a sign!
Unfortunately it is not possible to pursue a case for constructive dismissal at an Employment Tribunal as no AF personnel have an employment contract and are only employed under the Prerogative. Exemptions exist for AF personnel under the Employment Rights Act 1996 and 2002 regulations. It sucks!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Unfortunately it is not possible to pursue a case for constructive dismissal at an Employment Tribunal as no AF personnel have an employment contract and are only employed under the Prerogative. Exemptions exist for AF personnel under the Employment Rights Act 1996 and 2002 regulations. It sucks!
Service complaint then, it amounts to the same thing. I would look at other units just in case they get silly with you and then get everything in writing, accept no verbal brush offs and keep all emails and read receipts.
 

jim30

LE
Jim, they cant ask for repayment in one hit and they cant make deductions without a signed agreement. Its illegal. They should sort it and the tax themselves!
Agree and it was sorted sensibly ( I took a risk, invested the lump sum on stock market and doubled my invesment - free money!). But it does show how bad the advice we get at local level can be, particularly for reservists.
 
Jim, they cant ask for repayment in one hit and they cant make deductions without a signed agreement. Its illegal. They should sort it and the tax themselves!
Illegal or against the rules?
I got spanked 800 quid not so long ago because they had various names for the debts instead of one.

Luckily Bicester coincidentally sent some kit that they shouldnt to my unit.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Illegal or against the rules?
I got spanked 800 quid not so long ago because they had various names for the debts instead of one.

Luckily Bicester coincidentally sent some kit that they shouldnt to my unit.
Both, its enshrined in employment law I was told and possibly against the rules, different bills don't matter there is a limit unless you agree to pay it back!
 
Both, its enshrined in employment law I was told and possibly against the rules, different bills don't matter there is a limit unless you agree to pay it back!
Id rather pay it back in one go, but then I'm not a bloody little poor person. Ive always thought the 4 day rule was just something the army did, not civvies. If a corner shop paid 10000 instead of 1000 to an employee it would be unrealistic to let the employee pay them back a 4 days wages for for the next 50 or so months.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Id rather pay it back in one go, but then I'm not a bloody little poor person. Ive always thought the 4 day rule was just something the army did, not civvies. If a corner shop paid 10000 instead of 1000 to an employee it would be unrealistic to let the employee pay them back a 4 days wages for for the next 50 or so months.
Its not the amount but the principle, the corner shop isn't getting its money! Big firms do, they just cant do it in one hit leaving you with not enough to live on legally or without consent and that has to be written!
 

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