pap 10 vs medical discharge

#1
hi, i'm a currently serving soldier who is on a 'pap-10 list'.
i was injured in afghanistan which has resulted in various injuries for which i was made a perm p7 mnd grading at the beginning of 2011.
over the last couple of months i have been informed i am on a 'pap-10' list for which finding out any information just leads me to a generic answer of 'i don't know' or 'i've not heard anything else' from my seniors.
i previously had a job which has now been handed over to another member of the sqn as my boss feels i could be disharged at anytime, so now i am pretty much just emptying the battery on my phone playing games on it 5 days a week. (some may think that getting paid to do this is easy but believe me, it is soul destroying, mind numbing ****)
and to cut a long story short, i want any help/info on the what this pap-10 business is and whether its drastically different from a full medical discharge. and how benefits regarding to a lump sum / pension for both pap-10 and MD are different??

Any help is very much appreciated, thankyou.
 
#2
Firstly you will go through the RECU process, your CO will fill in Appx9 to PAP 10 and you should be asked to sign a form to allow your medical details to be used. Your CO will have to make a recommendation to APC about your employability in trade. APC OH will look at this and you should be given the chance to try to transfer into another trade/Corps if the is a place for you. If there is no place then a Medical Board may recommend discharge under a number of QRs and that will decide what kind of a pension or discharge you get. Ask your RAO staff for a chance to read up on PAP10, you need to be pro-active and understand the procedure if you are to have tne best possible outcome.
 
#3
thatnks for your reply,
i have had a full medical board in colchester to which my medical grade was made permanement p7 with me basically not being able to do anything 'green' so to speak as i cant do any impact training.
i have filled out an appendix 18 with my rcmo back in may and also signed for my med docs to be released.
i will definately be asking the rao to gain more info on the pap-10 but as i said before i usually run into a brick wall with answers like 'i dont know' etc. and seen as im a spr any attempt to push this further gets swiftly rejected due to my rank or lack of.
 
#4
Ketch,

The whole process is known as RECU (Resticted Employment in Current Unit). It only applies to soldiers (soon to include Offrs) who are premanently downgraded below retention standards for their Regt or Corps. The onus is on the CO to make an employment decision on you, once he is notified of your downgrade on an App 9 by the Medical chain.

He can choose to either retain you on an App 8 or apply for transfer, re-allocation or discharge on an App 22. The important thing to note is that, if asked by the CoC whether you are a volunteer for transfer, always say yes. This means that if nothing can be found for you employment wise, you can be discharged under QRs 9.385 which attracts alll the same financial benefits of a medical discharge. If you said no, then you would be discharged under QRs 9.414 SNLR (Services No Longer Required) and this attracts no financial benefits at all.

In addition, if the CoC wish to retain you, in the current climate it is unlikely that APC will be able to find anything, in which case DM (A) will direct your CoC to initiate an App 22.

The CoC must provide you with a full Implications brief once they have initiated this process. This includes the RCMO, RAO etc. Also, you may want to contact SPVA for advice too.

Good Luck with it.
 
#6
hi, i'm a currently serving soldier who is on a 'pap-10 list'.
i was injured in afghanistan which has resulted in various injuries for which i was made a perm p7 mnd grading at the beginning of 2011.
over the last couple of months i have been informed i am on a 'pap-10' list for which finding out any information just leads me to a generic answer of 'i don't know' or 'i've not heard anything else' from my seniors.
i previously had a job which has now been handed over to another member of the sqn as my boss feels i could be disharged at anytime, so now i am pretty much just emptying the battery on my phone playing games on it 5 days a week. (some may think that getting paid to do this is easy but believe me, it is soul destroying, mind numbing ****)
and to cut a long story short, i want any help/info on the what this pap-10 business is and whether its drastically different from a full medical discharge. and how benefits regarding to a lump sum / pension for both pap-10 and MD are different??

Any help is very much appreciated, thankyou.
OK excuse the ignorance, but Redundancy is where the job you were doing is no longer there. People are not made redundant jobs are. If somebody else is now doing your job, that is not a redundancy situation?
I think you need to check, as to what is going on, pronto before you let things slide further.
 
#7
Robbeus, I'm afraid you are ignorant of the facts here. He is not being made redundant he is being discharged for failing to maintain the medical grading needed to soldier on, all quite legal and, sadly what we all signed up for. The OP now needs to get on and make the most of the' Resettlement system and we should all wish him the best for a successful second career.
 

Bowmore_Assassin

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#8
OK excuse the ignorance, but Redundancy is where the job you were doing is no longer there. People are not made redundant jobs are. If somebody else is now doing your job, that is not a redundancy situation?
I think you need to check, as to what is going on, pronto before you let things slide further.
I think you will find until the manpower liability figures are adjusted down, there are a very large number of gapped posts at the moment. Jobs will disappear from the ORBAT post Army 2020 announcement in due course. I have been made redundant (volunteered) and a replacement for my job is on the next relevant Board.

So people are made redundant, not jobs. Just for the record.


Sent from my iPhone using ARRSE app
 
#9
hi, i'm a currently serving soldier who is on a 'pap-10 list'.
i was injured in afghanistan which has resulted in various injuries for which i was made a perm p7 mnd grading at the beginning of 2011.
over the last couple of months i have been informed i am on a 'pap-10' list for which finding out any information just leads me to a generic answer of 'i don't know' or 'i've not heard anything else' from my seniors.
i previously had a job which has now been handed over to another member of the sqn as my boss feels i could be disharged at anytime, so now i am pretty much just emptying the battery on my phone playing games on it 5 days a week. (some may think that getting paid to do this is easy but believe me, it is soul destroying, mind numbing ****)
and to cut a long story short, i want any help/info on the what this pap-10 business is and whether its drastically different from a full medical discharge. and how benefits regarding to a lump sum / pension for both pap-10 and MD are different??

Any help is very much appreciated, thankyou.
Take a look under the AFPS link at the 'Useful Links Thread' started by Escotia. The following is just one:

Medical Discharge Pathway - A Guide to the process

Well worth the time and trouble.

Good luck.
 
#10
Have you been medically discharged from the British Armed Forces? Soldier On! would like to hear from service personnel who have made the transition into the civilian world and to hear your stories. This is to help us make our service better and is not for any media purposes. Please contact me: nicholas@soldieron.org.uk Thank you

Soldier On! is a charity that provides career management support to medically discharged service personnel. We work with individuals who have been discharged for ANY medical condition and our aim is not to simply place people into a job, but to assist you to find the 'right' job for you.

As mentioned this is a serious question and we would like to hear from at least 100 individuals. We are not doing this for any TV documentary or anything like that, we are doing this because we feel that in order to get our offering just right we need to understand your thoughts having been through it in the past.

Thank you very much - Nicholas
 
#11
Have you been medically discharged from the British Armed Forces? Soldier On! would like to hear from service personnel who have made the transition into the civilian world and to hear your stories. This is to help us make our service better and is not for any media purposes. Please contact me: nicholas@soldieron.org.uk Thank you

Soldier On! is a charity that provides career management support to medically discharged service personnel. We work with individuals who have been discharged for ANY medical condition and our aim is not to simply place people into a job, but to assist you to find the 'right' job for you.

As mentioned this is a serious question and we would like to hear from at least 100 individuals. We are not doing this for any TV documentary or anything like that, we are doing this because we feel that in order to get our offering just right we need to understand your thoughts having been through it in the past.

Thank you very much - Nicholas
I was chatting to a bloke I was on a course with at Phoenix House, and he said that SoldierOn were quite helpful.

No experience of them myself, but just saying.
 
#12
Hi there.I know that there is a lot of info on here with regards to PAP 10 and I have trawled through it all and have still not found the answers that I am looking for. I am in the PAP 10 process, having completed an Appendix 22 and 18. I have seen the MO for a madical and she seems to thimk that i should have been discharged after a major knee operation back in 2004. I am currently at my 21yr 3month point and by the time the process is complete then I will be up to my 21yr 8 month point. My injury was atributable to service as I dislocated it in 99 and was told for 4 years that I had weak quads. I was wondering if I would still be entitled to a full army pension as I am on the AFPS 75, there is lots of info out there but as I am so close to pensionable age then will it be affected. Thanks for everyones assistance and all the other posts have given me lots of other info that no one has told me about.
 
#13
Units may tackle this slightly differently but the RECU process is an RCMO responsibility. You should have an initial interview where you will recieve an implications brief and take some documentation away to read. As the casefile matures you should also have your resettlement initiated in order that you may get ahead of the game. Once the casefile is posted to OH APC it is almost certain that you will receive notification of discharge (with a date) within a couple of months. If you're not aware at what stage your casefile is at or you do not know what is going on then you need to request an interview with the RCMO.
 
#14
Hi there.I know that there is a lot of info on here with regards to PAP 10 and I have trawled through it all and have still not found the answers that I am looking for. I am in the PAP 10 process, having completed an Appendix 22 and 18. I have seen the MO for a madical and she seems to thimk that i should have been discharged after a major knee operation back in 2004. I am currently at my 21yr 3month point and by the time the process is complete then I will be up to my 21yr 8 month point. My injury was atributable to service as I dislocated it in 99 and was told for 4 years that I had weak quads. I was wondering if I would still be entitled to a full army pension as I am on the AFPS 75, there is lots of info out there but as I am so close to pensionable age then will it be affected. Thanks for everyones assistance and all the other posts have given me lots of other info that no one has told me about.
If you are medically discharged you will get an AFPS 75 pension based on your rank for pension and length of service together with a lump sum of 3 x the pension. The pension is index linked straight away.

If you are administratively discharged before the 22 yr point you will get a preserved pension and lump sum.

If you need detailed help, join FPS via the website and the help desk will give you personalised facts and figures.
 
#15
Im looking for anyone who's had experience with pap10 discharge as my C of C including my MO doesn't have a clue and cant even point me in the right direction.

Im a Cpl and have completed 16yrs service. Im a PTI working in the unit Gym as 2I/c. A year ago I went sick with pain in my ankle. A year later and i have had 4 procedures including 2 OPs and numerous physio sessions and rehab courses but have now been told by the surgeon that he can do no more and that he recommends I leave the army before I have to have my ankle fused solid. Today my MO said i needed to be permanently downgraded and basically that if I didn't make out I was fit enough to be MLD and I went MND then i would likely be admin discharged under pap 10. So now I either lie and go MLD and rot away in a store never to be promoted again or go MND and get booted with no pension which I've earned! And to cap it all the AFCS told me i was not entitled to anything because they attributed all my problems to and ankle break in 2004 (pre AFCS) surely if I broke my ankle on PT and all the subsequent years of wear and tear have led me to this point I should be entitled to a Med discharge and not a cheers mate! See you later!
 
E

EScotia

Guest
#16
Read PAP10 especially the annexes and there's loads of links and info on here to give you more than a basic idea. I'd certainly be giving your CoC and MO a right going over as it's their job to manage you through the process and if they don't have a clue then they aren't fit to Command.

I'm extremely surprised that you seem to think that because your injury has been attributed to an ankle break in 2004 you're not entitled to compensation. You are, not by AFCS but by the War Pension Scheme. Unfortunately you can't benefit from the WPS until you leave service, whether that's a medical discharge or admin discharge. The bonus with WPS is it allows for deterioration unlike AFCS, so as you get older and the problems increase (not a given but is a possibility) then you can apply for deterioration and if successful get an increase in your War Pension.

It isn't your choice whether you are MLD or MND, it is for the Medical Board to decide, so inform your MO he/she is copping out and putting unfair pressure on you to in effect make the decision for them. Best way to do this IMO is to speak to your CoC about making a Service Complaint over trying to force you out on an Admin Discharge instead of a Medical one. I wouldn't mind betting the Med Board then decides you are P8 (Perm) and you get a Med Discharge.

I'd also ask why, if you need your ankle fusing, you need to leave the Army before it gets done?
 
#17
Cheers I'm doing all the reading I can I've been given 10 days to do research. I am aware that I would be able to claim a War Pension and Im happy with that. Its the pension thats the kicker with only 6 years to push Ive already starting making plans for a new life and they all included an immediate pension. I know its the MO's decision but lots of the questions on the 2 man med board ( which as we all know is just an appointment with the MO who then gets another signature at a later date) are very ambiguous so you can manipulate it either way i.e. can you run 100 meter? I can but not without pain but who's to say how bad the pain is everyone is different. So they can push it either way. The worrying thing is they're the only options Ive got no option at all for an MD because the Army is happy to employ me at a desk and deploy me whenever they want by filling out a risk assessment to say I'm fit to go, but at the same time never allowing me to me loaded onto a promotion cadre as MLD effectively ending my career.

So the Army gets a soldier it never has to promote, but who they can still deploy ( with a risk assessment) to boost numbers whenever it sees fit regardless. How can this be legal?
 
E

EScotia

Guest
#18
Personally I'd take the MLD and job offer despite the lack of promotion, I certainly wish I'd have had that opportunity!

Having a job in an organisation you know well is much better than not having a job or having to start again much earlier than expected. Conduct an exercise, write down all the Pro's & Cons of staying in then do the same exercise for leaving. If you do it honestly enough, objectively and thoroughly I would wager staying in wins hands down.

6 years is not long but what it gives you is a great opportunity to learn new skills and enhance the less physical skills you will already have, thereby padding out your CV and making it easier for you to attract opportunities from a wider share of the jobs market. If you also use this time to apply for every course you can get on that has transferable skills and use on-line training to supplement these then you will advance your future job opportunities immensely.

As regards the how far can you run question, it's very similar to the question disabled people are asked when applying for PIP mobility but for pip it is based on walking as it is for the assessment you will get when applying for a War Pension. You're never asked how much pain you are in whilst walking, how it affects the distance you can walk (now down to 20 metres from 50m) or how the subsequent pain affects the rest of your day. It is left to you as an individual to consider with no prompting and strangely enough most don't give it any consideration at all.

Of course what they're doing is legal and in the current environment the army is in they have no choice. You're taking up a PID that requires a fully fit soldier which you patently aren't. Whether it is morally correct or not may be a better question but again, in the current environment hard choices have to be made. I would be very pleased to think that despite everything the Army thought you were worth keeping on, it's a win-win for you and the Army.

PS

Prepare yourself for the future by applying for a Blue Badge now. You can get one whilst serving, I did.
 
#19
Cheers I'm doing all the reading I can I've been given 10 days to do research. I am aware that I would be able to claim a War Pension and Im happy with that. Its the pension thats the kicker with only 6 years to push Ive already starting making plans for a new life and they all included an immediate pension. I know its the MO's decision but lots of the questions on the 2 man med board ( which as we all know is just an appointment with the MO who then gets another signature at a later date) are very ambiguous so you can manipulate it either way i.e. can you run 100 meter? I can but not without pain but who's to say how bad the pain is everyone is different. So they can push it either way. The worrying thing is they're the only options Ive got no option at all for an MD because the Army is happy to employ me at a desk and deploy me whenever they want by filling out a risk assessment to say I'm fit to go, but at the same time never allowing me to me loaded onto a promotion cadre as MLD effectively ending my career.

So the Army gets a soldier it never has to promote, but who they can still deploy ( with a risk assessment) to boost numbers whenever it sees fit regardless. How can this be legal?

Are you a member of the Forces Pension Society. If so, contact David Marsh without delay and he will help you. If you are not a member, visit our website and see if we are for you.
 

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