Panzers to be laid up??

#1
Spotted article in NOTW (not the most authoritative I know) to be believed or not?........ "C2 to be mothballed to save cash."

I know that the armour threat from terry t is not great, but what will that leave of our great Corps.......???

I guess that would leave 1RTR as the only armoured regiment (Sqn) with tanks in use. Discuss.....
 
#2
Well i know Scots DG have been turned into a dismounted sqn and a warthog sqn for the up coming afgan tour. I think most CR2 regiments are now just taxi drivers with the mastiffs.
 
#5
Well i know Scots DG have been turned into a dismounted sqn and a warthog sqn for the up coming afgan tour. I think most CR2 regiments are now just taxi drivers with the mastiffs.
You are confusing what is going on to satisfy the manning requirement for a tour with what is happening with CR2 in general.

While it may be difficult to believe, SDSR is supposed the consider the nation's security beyond our current adventure in Afghanistan. That means consideration of a variety of capabilities not currently employed by UK forces in Afghanistan. In particular the realisation that if you lose the armoured capability completely, (or hand it to the TA as i gather some bright spark suggested) you will never build it back up. To that end I think it is reasonable to expect that the RAC will continue to train with tanks with a view to future conflict. I suspect that the number of Sqns which do train "in role" will reduce and that we will see a formalisation of secondary roles for the RAC.

My view, for what it's worth, is that the RAC needs to be institutionally more flexible and that the current force structures do not necessarily lend themselves to this. In particular the division between Armd and FR. I suspect that amalgamations are on their way, for the RAC. It remains to be seen if the RAC will embrace change or argue about who is cavalry, who is not and what colour of trousers everyone ought to wear and so "die on the vine."
 
#6
While I know this is simplistic, full on warfare of armies is no longer likely. The German plain is never going to happen.

Tanks, Artillery and communications networks of the cold war are no longer needed. The RAF are in for a shafting too I think. Small, mobile and flexible formations are the way ahead.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#7
While I know this is simplistic, full on warfare of armies is no longer likely. The German plain is never going to happen.

Tanks, Artillery and communications networks of the cold war are no longer needed. The RAF are in for a shafting too I think. Small, mobile and flexible formations are the way ahead.
Good point. There'll never be another Bosnia I'm sure, and deffo not one in which they actually shoot back at our APCs and Apaches. Heaven forfend that a country like Iraq actually opposes us with tanks AND effective shoulder-launched AA missiles! Mind you, if that happened, we could take them out with our fast je . . . . oh.
 
#8
The trouble with mothballing or outright binning capabilities is that you never know whats around the corner and what you're going to need. THis is true frankly for the entire SDR though I doubt I really needed to point that out.

But look at it this way; in 1925 Germany was bankrupt and on its knees. It had french troops on the east bank of the Rhine, massive internal strife between political factions, the Kaiser had been packed off to Holland, the High Seas fleet was at the bottom of Scapa Flow and the airforce disbanded and the army all but imasculated.

If you had stopped the average brit on the street in 1925 and told him Germany would conquer 80% of europe in less than two decades, you would have been laughed at and told to not spout such absurd rubbish. 15 years later that is exactly what it did.

Just because something seems absurd and unlikely now doesn't mean that will always be the case. We forget that (and bin things) at our peril.
 
#9
Sod 1925, you just have to look back to early 1990 when Options 2 was being plotted, or John Nott's planned Naval cuts in 1981.

Plus ça change......
 
#10
The trouble with mothballing or outright binning capabilities is that you never know whats around the corner and what you're going to need. THis is true frankly for the entire SDR though I doubt I really needed to point that out.
Hopefully heavy armour will end up in a shed somewhere and not at Witham's before he end of the month.
It seems fairly sure that C2 is either for the chop in a big way but hopefully somebody has he sense to park up the vast majority incase of a rainy day rather than dispose of them.
Challenger 2 is a world class piece of kit and will remain so for an awful lot of years to come. They are paid for too and worth a great deal more to the country in storage than the few million quid they would be sold off for
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
#11
I hope that if the number of CR2 regiments is cut, that they don't disband the regiments, but turn them to recce. Yes, yes I know there are those who will insist that RAC = tanks, but again in essence cavalry = recce. Since as I understand it the armoured regiments all now have "medium armour" squadrons of Scimitar to reduce the number of CR2s HMG needs to buy without reducing the number of bums on seats, converting regiments to Scimitar is only another step.

If they then turn round and make a CR2 gunnery course and say a three-year posting to an armoured squadron a pre-req to promotion to Lance Corporal, we won't lose the skills and in the event of an escalation, we'll be able to build up a whole lot easier than otherwise.

Or take the "medium armour squadron" thing a step further. Establish every RAC regiment as Scimitar with a large troop of say 8 CR2s. Instant battle group, all wearing the same cap badge.

I really don't have all the answers, but like in 1990, if we don't accept that change will happen, it will cost us, the RAC, regiments.
 
#12
I believe one of the assumptions of War Ministry planning in the early 30s, when money was decidedly tight, was that there wouldn't be a European war for at least 20 years.

No doubt, a letter was leaked to the Kanzelerei.
 
#13
If we hadn’t deployed tanks in combat or on ops for many years I could just about understand the bean counters wishes to mothball some of them.

Accountants and politicians memories of military action fade quickly. Couple this with the ‘what can we cut’ as opposed to the ‘what can we spend’ attitude and you get people making badly timed, ill informed decisions that are likely to adversely affect the hard hitting combat power of the Army.

However, looking back, the CR2 has been deployed operationally in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq. All are ‘recent’ operations in historical terms (well they are in my opinion) and all are operations that CR2 added value to.

The tank is the status symbol of an Army’s combat power for a very good reason. Also the number of tanks an army possesses is often the yardstick used to gauge its potential combat power.

An Army without tanks doesn’t deserve to be called an Army, and anyone who truly believes that British heavy armour will not see combat in the future is a short sighted fool.
 
#14
Id say its going to happen,Might not be whole Regiments, but maybe you will have one squadron Heavy the rest light so to speak.
 
#15
If the day of heavy armour is over , how come the Americans keep something like 3000 in storage ?
I am with DPM sheep on this one.You simply don't know what's round the corner ,
like thousands of T90's on their way to Warsaw because someone forgot to pay the gas bill , or because Putin ( or his eventual successor ) takes offence at something .
 
#16
When the majority of the Yeomanry Regiments lost their armour, HQ DRAC maintained that generalist RAC skills could be maintained by training on STVs (Surrogate Training Vehicles), which in essence meant strip-down Defenders (which later had to be rapidly 'un-stripped' when it was relaised they contravened SHEF policy). The plan was thus that a trade structure could be built relatively inexpensively, and in the event of LSDI operations, reservists could be trained in the appropriate specialist skill-set of within the set mobilisation period.

Surely the time has now come to adopt this sound and proven policy as a 'One Army' efficiency measure until such time as heavy capability is again required? ;-)
 
#17
This may have been answered elsewhere but are any MBTs in use in Afg. To the best of my knowledge the Russians deployed them with some degree of success.
 
#18
This may have been answered elsewhere but are any MBTs in use in Afg. To the best of my knowledge the Russians deployed them with some degree of success.
We are not playing with them. The Danish use them alot and i know if we need the heavy support they have helped us out on a few ocassions. The canadians have them to but not sure how much longer the Canadians are sticking around!
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
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#19
So the second 100 year experiment (RAF being the other) is coming to an end. Ah well what's next?

Dons helmet and body armour and enters two man trench to avoid incoming................
 
#20
The South African Army kept most of its MBT capability in reserve force regiments in the 60s, 70s and 80s. In fact the only regular/national service tank sub-unit was a training squadron at the School of Armour.
 

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