PANTHER as replacement for CVR(T)?

#1
Alright all, not a tanky/cav type so please excuse my barging into your forum and ignorance of most things armoured, but I've a bit of a query.

Having seen a Panther up close and thinking it looked like a Landie/Hummvee on steroids I did a bit of googling, found out it is meant to replace Landies, 432s, Saxons and CVRT.

Now I'm not sure how it'll stand in for Saxon and 432 per se but that's not the main point I'm wondering about.

If Panther has been procured as a CVRT replacement, does this mean that they are taking over from CVRT elements (recce platoons) in Armoured Inf bns and CR2 regts? Does it mean they are taking over from CVRT in FR Regts?

Is Panther going to be a suitable CVRT replacement given it has wheels, therefore different (less?) mobility than the tracked Wr, CR2 it has to recce for? And different mobility to the CVRT it would have replaced? Ground pressure has got to be more on 4 wheels than on tracks, so how is having recce elements get stuck where the main body of the unit wouldn't get stuck going to work?

It also seems a far less 'aggressive' veh than Scimitar et al do, I'm not sure of the respective armour of each, but at least Scimitar has a 30mm.

Perhaps the thinking is now more recce by stealth, hence wheels (quieter than tracks), no turret so lower profile and no RARDEN as not needed for recce by stealth as much?

Like I said, I'm no RAC type, just thinking why we have gone for an uprated Hummvee-a-like to replace what is pretty much a light tank. I know the Iveco LMV Panther is based off has done some good (Norwegian forces in them got ambushed in Afghan and apparently their armour came in bloody handy) but can point me in the right direction ref roles?
 
#2
Considering CVRT is getting 40mm punching power in the not too distant future and Panther can only take 50 cal I very much doubt it. The vehicles are as different as chalk and cheese and each have completely different capabilities.
 
#3
As Falsch said, but Panther isnt a replacement for Scimitar,both will be in ops. If recce is to be stealthy, then its boots on the ground rather than vehicles.
 
#4
Gotcha. I was thinking that Panther wouldn't be half as useful as something like Scimitar would if the job was to change from recce to direct fire support of inf - something I've read was termed 'Medium Armour' role in a copy of BAR I think. Scimitar seems a bit of an all-rounder; no bad thing. I know other countries have gone to wheeled vehs for Armd Recce (Fennek springs to mind) so was thinking this might be our attempt at a similar concept.

The only question that arises out of the above is, if Panther is not a CVRT/Scimitar replacement, then what is it for?

It's also billed as a replacement for LR, 432 and Saxon, but it seems a bit small to be carrying the same amount a 432 or Saxon would be able too and looks a bit pricey to be taking over from LRs one-for-one anytime soon. Any ideas?
 
#5
Some FR regiments already have Panther. The vehicle will in no way be a replacement for Scimitar but Sultan is another story.

CVR(T) does not equal Scimitar!

Voltiguer said:
The only question that arises out of the above is, if Panther is not a CVRT/Scimitar replacement, then what is it for?
C2.
 
#7
Hmm, a dedicated commander's wagon.

Wouldn't this raise a few dramas with not necessarily being of the same mobility, range etc etc etc as the vehicles it is with and commanding? Also more training, different spare parts, and all the other clonk.

Not to mention marking out each and every Panther and commander as a priority target?
 
#9
Voltiguer said:
Hmm, a dedicated commander's wagon.

Wouldn't this raise a few dramas with not necessarily being of the same mobility, range etc etc etc as the vehicles it is with and commanding? Also more training, different spare parts, and all the other clonk.

Not to mention marking out each and every Panther and commander as a priority target?
The thing is with Panther is that it can carry no stores. It's biggest weapon system is (unmanned) 50 cal and only 4 people can fit in it. What else can it be used for? Recce or command?
 
#11
Panther replace Scimitar? Over my dead body! (Quite likely then)

A few years ago when it was being trialled at ATDU and thrashed round the Bovvy training area, the guys there said it was going to be a SQMS or liaison vehicle but they had to bung a massive amount of Bowman in and that pretty much cut down all the room inside.

Hope I am not breaking Opsec about how much space Bowman takes up... better not mention how useful it is either.
 
#12
TenaciousDave said:
the guys there said it was going to be a SQMS or liaison vehicle but they had to bung a massive amount of Bowman in and that pretty much cut down all the room inside.
Yep, heard the same thing though it's pointless as a CQMS/SQMS vehicle. Much better for a CQMS to travel in a vehicle that can also carry stores etc such as a Coyote though obviously not as much protection is there. I think it's best used as a command vehicle considering an IED can't tell the difference unless CW/RC or CPIED.
 
#13
Having used Panther I can add a few thoughts.
In its own right it is a good vehicle but it is hard to say how it can be used best. It was bought (I believe) as a command and liason vehicle, but as someone has pointed out that would mark it as a target. Limited visibility leads to poor situational awareness too. However the interior space is about as good as a fiat 500. There is no load space at all. It wasnt designed as a patrol vehicle and as such is of limited use.
We had 2 at our disposal but never really knew how best to use them. The one we had in a PB was really good as a stag position, owing to the optics.
Built by Iveco I think it owes its' dna to a Lamborghini off roader built in the 1970's. the LM400
 

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#14
omegahunter said:
IIRC ASCOD SV will be the replacement for Scimitar, although I seem to remember it being a meter higher and two longer off the top of my head
I still dont think thats going to come about, certainly after the upgrades on the scimitar, reasoning being on cash, rather than another reason (its replacement being like a bus)
 
#15
scarletto said:
omegahunter said:
IIRC ASCOD SV will be the replacement for Scimitar, although I seem to remember it being a meter higher and two longer off the top of my head
I still dont think thats going to come about, certainly after the upgrades on the scimitar, reasoning being on cash, rather than another reason (its replacement being like a bus)
Having been out a couple of years now, I've kinda lost track of things a little. I realise they're planning on up gunning the Scimitar, what other upgrades are planned, and will it effect it's air portable role?
 
#16
Voltiguer said:
Alright all, not a tanky/cav type so please excuse my barging into your forum and ignorance of most things armoured, but I've a bit of a query.

Having seen a Panther up close and thinking it looked like a Landie/Hummvee on steroids I did a bit of googling, found out it is meant to replace Landies, 432s, Saxons and CVRT.

Now I'm not sure how it'll stand in for Saxon and 432 per se but that's not the main point I'm wondering about.

If Panther has been procured as a CVRT replacement, does this mean that they are taking over from CVRT elements (recce platoons) in Armoured Inf bns and CR2 regts? Does it mean they are taking over from CVRT in FR Regts?

Is Panther going to be a suitable CVRT replacement given it has wheels, therefore different (less?) mobility than the tracked Wr, CR2 it has to recce for? And different mobility to the CVRT it would have replaced? Ground pressure has got to be more on 4 wheels than on tracks, so how is having recce elements get stuck where the main body of the unit wouldn't get stuck going to work?

It also seems a far less 'aggressive' veh than Scimitar et al do, I'm not sure of the respective armour of each, but at least Scimitar has a 30mm.

Perhaps the thinking is now more recce by stealth, hence wheels (quieter than tracks), no turret so lower profile and no RARDEN as not needed for recce by stealth as much?

Like I said, I'm no RAC type, just thinking why we have gone for an uprated Hummvee-a-like to replace what is pretty much a light tank. I know the Iveco LMV Panther is based off has done some good (Norwegian forces in them got ambushed in Afghan and apparently their armour came in bloody handy) but can point me in the right direction ref roles?
In an Armd (CR2) Sqn it replaced the Spartan as the SSM's wheels!
 
#17
Regarding upgrades on scimitar, all have been done for id say oh at least this current year (again down to budget), which is why id say down to cash spent its highly unlikely it will be scrapped or replaced, its air portable role isnt changed, but if your talking of it being flung out the back of a herc :) that still isnt going to happen, unless we use them instead of 1000 pounders :)
 
#18
Nemesis01 said:
scarletto said:
omegahunter said:
IIRC ASCOD SV will be the replacement for Scimitar, although I seem to remember it being a meter higher and two longer off the top of my head
I still dont think thats going to come about, certainly after the upgrades on the scimitar, reasoning being on cash, rather than another reason (its replacement being like a bus)
Having been out a couple of years now, I've kinda lost track of things a little. I realise they're planning on up gunning the Scimitar, what other upgrades are planned, and will it effect it's air portable role?
Given that its supposed to weight 42 tons...
 
#19
So, so far it's been described as too small for load carrying (and we have Coyote/Husky/Wolfhound anyway for that), good optics but not suited for recce, usable as a command vehicle but to be honest it is quite distinctive as a target if doing that as opposed to a command variant of whatever other vehicle type is around, and it seems to be used as a wagon for various Sqn/BG level personalities.

To be honest, why did we bother?

Part of me wants to suggest it could come in handy as a weapons carrier a la WMIK, HMG or GMG on top and it's armoured too. Only thing being that it can't carry that many dismounts so it'd need to operate with light role inf and if it needs all that armour due to whatever threats are about then is that the sort of situ you particularly want to have light role dismounted inf in? Oh, and we also have Jackal/Coyote in that role and with more situational awareness no doubt.

Some sort of Snatch replacement perhaps, but then again it doesn't sound like it's going to carry enough bods...
 
#20
omegahunter said:
Nemesis01 said:
scarletto said:
omegahunter said:
IIRC ASCOD SV will be the replacement for Scimitar, although I seem to remember it being a meter higher and two longer off the top of my head
I still dont think thats going to come about, certainly after the upgrades on the scimitar, reasoning being on cash, rather than another reason (its replacement being like a bus)
Having been out a couple of years now, I've kinda lost track of things a little. I realise they're planning on up gunning the Scimitar, what other upgrades are planned, and will it effect it's air portable role?
Given that its supposed to weight 42 tons...
Ahh right, like I said..................mumble.................chunter, I'll get me coat.
 

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