Panorama - 23 July

#1
Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere.

I was watching Panorama last night, about nursing/care homes for the elderly. The message seemed to be if you work all your life, pay for your house, save for a rainy day, and then become incapacitated you get the lot stolen from you by the government.

If you become medically incapacitated, the government agencies twist your circumstances so they can say it's not a medical condition, and rob you by charging for social care.

Serious question - why bother buying your house, and why bother saving for a rainy day? Wouldn't we be better off renting and living a more enjoyable lifestyle while we're younger?

Some of the patients shown last night had obviously been thrifty, probably denied themselves flashy cars and holidays, and have ended up no better off than some dole-ite who has never contributed to the country's coffers in their lives (in fact quite the reverse). Rant over.
 
#2
Very harrowing indeed PK.

My poor Mum had to pay for all her care whilst she was in special sheltered accomodation; it was very, very good and couldn't be faulted in any way.
That was because she had sold her house before moving there [in fact she stayed with us previously but as her disability increased we found it difficult to cope]. Luckily my late Mum was nowhere near as bad as those poor persons seen last night.

The local care people actually wrote to her and stated that if she spent her savings frivolously she would not receive state help for the services she was paying for.
What did get her down was the fact that a number of other residents had lied about their financial circumstances and maintained their savings for use as they cared.

Mum had asked me to ensure that at if her circumstances [she was crippled with arthiritis along with lung problems caused by some 'wonder drug' that wasn't] changed drastically I was to insist that she was not to be resuscitated.

Unfortunately it eventually came to that and the beligerance that I met from the nursing staff over that matter was unbelievable. Even though my Mum was slipping away they roused her to see if I was telling the truth - the vehemence she answered with belied the seriousness of her situation but she made her point adequately and she was allowed to quietly slip away.

Our caring society is most peculiar indeed. Many ethnic groups actually revere their elderly folk - but Britain? You continue to pay tax from beyond the grave.
 
#3
Phillip-Kotler said:
Serious question - why bother buying your house, and why bother saving for a rainy day? Wouldn't we be better off renting and living a more enjoyable lifestyle while we're younger?

Some of the patients shown last night had obviously been thrifty, probably denied themselves flashy cars and holidays, and have ended up no better off than some dole-ite who has never contributed to the country's coffers in their lives (in fact quite the reverse). Rant over.
My thoughts exactly if you play by the rules, work for a living, pay taxes etc in the UK you will be shafted in favour of the feckless oxygen thieves that our local councils and the NHS seem to pander to.

That Panorama programme was enough to make you want to put your boot through the TV screen.
 
#4
Its an odd situation where hospital/health treatment is free but 'care' - where they can do nothing but look after people until they die - is not.
I believe it is free in Scotland and there is pressure to spread this to the whole of the UK. Unfortunately, the government cites the cost and refuses to extend the Scottish system.
What this does, of course, is make old/sick people guilty about depriving loved ones of an inheritance - cynics could say this 'encourages' them to 'do the decent thing' and saves the country(and the government) money....perish the thought!
 
#5
I was disgusted watching this programme last night. My parents are both in their early sixties, although thankfully in rude health. They have worked hard all their lives (since the age of 14). My mother is 61 and still works part time, my father says he cannot afford to retire at 65. 25 years ago they managed to buy their council house, and sold it a few years later to buy privately - they still have the mortgage. They very rarely holiday outside of the UK (if they holiday at all), and spend every spare penny on the house and garden.

I do not want the house. I would much rather they were safe and well and healthy, but the fact is that one day they will die, and they want me to have the house. It is despicable that they will have to sell the house that means so much to them, that they have sacrificed so much for, and that they want me to have, should one or both of thhem need long-term care. They are, perhaps rightly, wondering why they bothered to 'better themselves' - as they saw it - by struggling to buy their own property rather than staying in the council tower block.

The argument about the disaparity between English and Scottish citizens is an old one, and not worth revisiting again here.

I really think this government need to take a long hard look at their priorities and where they throw their cash. As so many times before, the scroats who don't lift a finger all their lives are OK because they get it for free, the fat cats (and politicans) are OK because they can afford it without selling their possessions. The average hard working person is screwed over.
 
#6
The lack of respect and compassion by the government's relevant authorities for our elderly generation is utterly shameful, especially so considering the effort seemingly applied in assisting asylum seekers and immigrant freeloaders.

I believe one way to avoid having to relinquish everything you've worked for just to receive mediocre care in your dotage is to 'give' it away prematurely to those who you wish to inherit. There are timescales on this action though - 7 years between gifting and requiring care I understand it to be - but as long as you can trust your intended beneficiaries not to disappear on a grand spree whilst you're still alive and kicking then transferring property and savings into their names as early as possible is one way of protecting your hard earned assets.
 
#7
Are there any scams that can be employed? I am interested in, for example, giving everything to my children with certain conditions attached, in order to screw back every penny of tax paid that I can.
 
#8
The best thing you can do is for your parents to transfer the deeds of your house to you and then pay you a peppercorn rent of £2 per week. You own the house (on paper) and if your folks need nursing care then they simply move into a home and the local healthcare trust/DSS picks up the tab. It galls me when scumbags never work or pay taxes and go to the top of the queue. My old man is a retired para and him and mom gave me the house 12 years ago to escape fees for nursing homes. I don't want a red cent of it but it will force HMG to shell out for the years of NI / Tax they paid. Hopefully my parents will have a long innings but if not at least my wee ones will have a few pennies to start them off in 15 years time. Speak to a solicitor who can help.
 
#9
The best thing you can do is for your parents to transfer the deeds of your house to you
This has to be done a minimum of 7 years before any nursing / residential home is needed, otherwise the local authority can still enforce a sale to ensure that the fee's of care are met by the owner.
 
#10
58_Pattern said:
The best thing you can do is for your parents to transfer the deeds of your house to you and then pay you a peppercorn rent of £2 per week. You own the house (on paper) and if your folks need nursing care then they simply move into a home and the local healthcare trust/DSS picks up the tab. It galls me when scumbags never work or pay taxes and go to the top of the queue. My old man is a retired para and him and mom gave me the house 12 years ago to escape fees for nursing homes. I don't want a red cent of it but it will force HMG to shell out for the years of NI / Tax they paid. Hopefully my parents will have a long innings but if not at least my wee ones will have a few pennies to start them off in 15 years time. Speak to a solicitor who can help.
Poor advice I am afraid, since if it appears to the local authority that a transaction has occurred which it feels has taken place to avoid a legitimate charge, application may be made to the court to have the transaction set aside as a 'sham transaction'.

Many such applications by local authorities succeed leaving the beneficiary of the property having to meet the cost of care funded out of the equity of redemption found out of the property he has acquired from his relative - in addition to having to find the inheritance tax on it!

The Government closed that loophole a long time ago and are now set to close another one, by compulsorily taking into care those who decide to remain in their own homes under a statutory regime similar to that which exists in respect of children taken into care! A social worker will determine whether or not the elderly person is at risk or not!
 
#11
Iolis said:
58_Pattern said:
The best thing you can do is for your parents to transfer the deeds of your house to you and then pay you a peppercorn rent of £2 per week. You own the house (on paper) and if your folks need nursing care then they simply move into a home and the local healthcare trust/DSS picks up the tab. It galls me when scumbags never work or pay taxes and go to the top of the queue. My old man is a retired para and him and mom gave me the house 12 years ago to escape fees for nursing homes. I don't want a red cent of it but it will force HMG to shell out for the years of NI / Tax they paid. Hopefully my parents will have a long innings but if not at least my wee ones will have a few pennies to start them off in 15 years time. Speak to a solicitor who can help.
Poor advice I am afraid, since if it appears to the local authority that a transaction has occurred which it feels has taken place to avoid a legitimate charge, application may be made to the court to have the transaction set aside as a 'sham transaction'.

Many such applications by local authorities succeed leaving the beneficiary of the property having to meet the cost of care funded out of the equity of redemption found out of the property he has acquired from his relative - in addition to having to find the inheritance tax on it!

The Government closed that loophole a long time ago and are now set to close another one, by compulsorily taking into care those who decide to remain in their own homes under a statutory regime similar to that which exists in respect of children taken into care! A social worker will determine whether or not the elderly person is at risk or not!
Have just been reading about the elderly lady who was deemed by her social worker as "non compos mentis" - not capable of conducting her own affairs, and not fit to return to her own home. Turned out the social worker had seen her pouring hot water into het teapot, then pouring it out before putting in tea leaves and a fresh lot of hot water.
 
#12
Thank you Hackle,

This is but one single manifestation of something the public are gradually beginning to wake up to and something I discovered with ever increasing horror when I studied the compulsoty module of land law in general and the law of mortgages in particular. The equity of redemption in the family home is a 'piggy bank' not only for the state itself but also for the commercial sector. There are many more ways than this under which the state and the commercial sector may acquire the equity of redemption in the property of a so-called 'homeowner' - often without either his knowledge or consent!

Think you 'own' your own home? Think you have a superior form of tenure over that of a council house tenant?

Think again!

Regards and best wishes
Iolis
 
#13
Residential care for the elderly in Scotland, is not free for those that can afford it. What is free is social care but the rest has to be paid by the person receiving care.

If you want to transfer house it has to be done 8 years prior to receipt of care. Another thing that can be done is for all accounts to be in joint names, then when a financial assessment is completed only half of the money is taken into account.

As for selling the house, I don't know what the English law is but in Scotland you cannot be forced into selling, however, what the SWD do is place a note of interest on the house, then at a later date if the house is ever sold the can recover some money that way.

The Government say that they will look after the elderly, after all it was them that fought for the country. Poppycock, they rip them of at every opportunity.
 
#14
Thank you nutcracker,

If a property is held in joint ownership a sale may still be required with the equitable interest in the equity of redemption in respect of the person being treated being used to fund the care. The equitable interest of the remaining beneficiary not subject to treatment cannot, or course be claimed but the result is, nevertheless, that the home is sold with the remaining beneficiary having to use his or her equitable interest in the property found from the proceeds of sale to fund alternative accommodation.

In respect of a transaction in which the property is placed into joint ownership by deed where it can be show that it was more probable than not that the transaction was effectuated for the purposes of evading a charge, the local authority may have the transaction set aside as a sham transaction.

Regards and best wishes
Iolis
 
#15
This is what is going to happen to each and every one of us who surives active service, cancer or any other kind of illness:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2283680,00.html

It does not matter how fit and strong you are now, or how successful you are in your life, time will, more sooner than you think, simply catch up with you and there is nothing at all you can do to prevent it!

What you are looking at is your future!

It will occur at a time when you are no longer productive and cease to contribute to a state that will regard you as a waste of resources!

It is going to happen to your mother, your father, and then it is going to happen to you!

It will then happen to your children eventually!

It will happen because those who allow it to happen now are too terrified of looking into the future and seeing themselves reflected within it!!

It will happen because, to the state. an individual is regarded as little more than a commodity, a piece of meat in some cost-benefit analysis!!
 
#16
MrPVRd said:
Are there any scams that can be employed? I am interested in, for example, giving everything to my children with certain conditions attached, in order to screw back every penny of tax paid that I can.
I spoke with my solicitor about this one a good five years ago and he said it's a very difficult thing to do.

Last night I instructed my son that if things got so bad that it came to the situation seen on Panorama he was to dump me at the nearest A&E and let them sort me out.

Billicks to our society and what it has become.
 
#17
Last night I instructed my son that if things got so bad that it came to the situation seen on Panorama he was to dump me at the nearest A&E and let them sort me out.
Bed blocking, as it is known is a common practice of families with an elderly patient waiting for a placement in a home. Because the families are responsible for finding a home suitable for the needs of the elderly relative, then financially this is a good idea. However bear in mind that some people can live a fair few years with their condition and if the relatives of that patient are not seen to be actively searching for a care home, then the hospital / social services can intervene, take attornery and place the patient in a home of their choice, rather than yours.
I don't blame families for trying everything and anything to avoid selling the family home, why should they? The home owner will have worked damned hard to buy that house, pay their taxes and national insurance and.....will have suffered times of extreme hardship through the second and possibly even the first world war. Old Mrs Smith may not have contributed financially towards the cost of her home as she may have been a full time mother and housewife, as was the norm back then, however she did contribute towards society by raising her children and will have contributed towards the war effort by working in the munitions or on the land etc.
Yet by doing so, she appears to be penalised financially by the goverment when she needs care for herself the most. What sort of society are we that allows an elderly person to have to sell their home to pay for a care that he / she has paid towards all her life? What sort of goverment treats the most valuable members of society with such disdain and contempt?
It seems to be true that the more you try and help yourself, the less you will get because after all, if you lived in rented accommodation all your life, then you would pay nothing towards the fee of the home. So by being independent and paying your way through life you get bugger all back when you most need it.
 
#18
Few years ago my grandmother who lived in London became seriously ill and was unable to look after herself even though she lived in a sheltered accomodation flat.
The local authority kicked up a fuss because we asked for her to come to a nursing home near us in Oxfordshire because she ahd familly here that could visit everyday. Local authority said that if we wanted to move her out of London then we would have to contribute to the costs of her care approx £300 per month.
We did some checking and found out that the care home where we lived was considerably cheaper than the one they wanted to place her in in London. We called thier bluff and they eventually agreed to fund her care in Oxfordshire.
Local Authorities will try it on and if they get away with it 1 in 10 they will look upon it as a victory.
 
#19
Please spare a thought for the Reverend Alfred Scott, a former WO1 in the RAOC and holder of the Burma Star, currently living in the Isle of Wight. Alfred married a younger woman, whose mother was committed to an Elderly Mentally Impaired (EMI) nursing home. Alfred had to fork out to keep her there, using his house as security. She has since died. Alfred, at the ripe old age of 85 now faces losing the very roof over his head. He has been appealing against this for a considerable period, but now informs me that the process has reached the end of the line. Practical suggestions any kind of help and legal expertise would be most welcome. If it wasn't for men like Alfred, we wouldn't be on this forum today.

Bless 'em all

SelfLoadingRifle
 
#20
Just been through all this. Mother in law in care home. Father in law at home. He wasn't forced to sell the house as it was his primary residence. Then he died. The local authority tried to back date the care home fees to the date mother in law went into care. After a lot of rowing they gave in. Still had to sell the house and pay 2 grand a month from the date of his death. Because of the way the house was owned the state could have run the savings all the way down to £10K. This isn't funny when you are greiving. Our finances have been changed as a result to avoid our brats having the same hassle.
 

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