Pakistani civil war, can the UK accept refugees?

#1
I have been thinking about this a lot recently and the article below from todays Observer by my favorite leftie writer Nick Cohen has prompted this post.

Hopefully it won't get holed or hijacked, Its my firm belief that Pakistan is on the way out and it will break up into a number of States - its default position. This conflict is going to release an absolute flood of refugess looking for a safe haven, the vast majority of these will be the holders of western values and in many cases educations. In addition many will have blood relatives as UK Citizens.

What to do?

from the article
One senior figure involved with terrorism strategy put it like this: "If Pakistan continues to descend into chaos, movement between our countries will slow extraordinarily quickly. There will be queues of tens of thousands waiting for visas. SIS [that's MI6] will stop trusting the information they get from the Pakistani intelligence services and we will not clear people for visits."

....one influential figure began to muse on the possibility of closing the borders.

Women, Christians, Sufi Muslims and democrats are already fleeing the advancing Taliban. If war drives them to think of seeking asylum here, the government is considering the introduction of a discriminatory visa system to stop them reaching Heathrow. "We would have to amend the Race Relations Act and possibly opt out of the Human Rights Act if we wanted a special visa system that applied only to Pakistan but not other countries," said my source, who gave every impression he was considering doing both.
In full

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/26/pakistan-taliban-nick-cohen

One things for sure we are past the highwater mark of Globalisation.
 
#2
It's a sad situation certainly, however we have enough problems with people from that "neck of the woods" and thats whilst we still "trust" the Pakistani intelligence service.

The UK is full to busting at the moment, our economy is in turmoil, our own security services are already overwhelmed monitoring the current number of refugees and immigrants we already have here. We have neither the room, the money & for many of the population we do not have the tolerance.

As you've said here: "Women, Christians, Sufi Muslims and democrats are already fleeing the advancing Taliban" its a terrible shame. But, the UK has a duty of care to it's own citizens before thinking of others. If these people hold western values, what's to stop them from going to France, Germany or a safe muslim country like Turkey?

There is no more Empire, we are no longer in a position to provide aid to all and sundry. Even in this situation the UK should not be the default choice for refugees. I have family in the US and Oz, that doesn't grant me citizenship; I'd still have to work at it to move there.

At the end of the day if they want to stop their own country falling into turmoil, they should fight for it, or for their own state from the fallout fragments.
 
#3
Krazy_Ivan said:
It's a sad situation certainly, however we have enough problems with people from that "neck of the woods" and thats whilst we still "trust" the Pakistani intelligence service.

The UK is full to busting at the moment, our economy is in turmoil, our own security services are already overwhelmed monitoring the current number of refugees and immigrants we already have here. We have neither the room, the money & for many of the population we do not have the tolerance.

As you've said here: "Women, Christians, Sufi Muslims and democrats are already fleeing the advancing Taliban" its a terrible shame. But, the UK has a duty of care to it's own citizens before thinking of others. If these people hold western values, what's to stop them from going to France, Germany or a safe muslim country like Turkey?

There is no more Empire, we are no longer in a position to provide aid to all and sundry. Even in this situation the UK should not be the default choice for refugees. I have family in the US and Oz, that doesn't grant me citizenship; I'd still have to work at it to move there.

At the end of the day if they want to stop their own country falling into turmoil, they should fight for it, or for their own state from the fallout fragments.
My bold

your right on all your points and my bold is something i have said about many recent conflicts, no matter how unpleasant it is to see the suffering and destruction wrought upon the innocent and weak. the whole region is a mess. but its not our mess, i do consider that the instant sunshine falling into the wrong hands wont be good though!
 
#4
armchair_jihad said:
I have been thinking about this a lot recently and the article below from todays Observer by my favorite leftie writer Nick Cohen has prompted this post.

Hopefully it won't get holed or hijacked, Its my firm belief that Pakistan is on the way out and it will break up into a number of States - its default position. This conflict is going to release an absolute flood of refugess looking for a safe haven, the vast majority of these will be the holders of western values and in many cases educations. In addition many will have blood relatives as UK Citizens.

What to do?

from the article
One senior figure involved with terrorism strategy put it like this: "If Pakistan continues to descend into chaos, movement between our countries will slow extraordinarily quickly. There will be queues of tens of thousands waiting for visas. SIS [that's MI6] will stop trusting the information they get from the Pakistani intelligence services and we will not clear people for visits."

....one influential figure began to muse on the possibility of closing the borders.

Women, Christians, Sufi Muslims and democrats are already fleeing the advancing Taliban. If war drives them to think of seeking asylum here, the government is considering the introduction of a discriminatory visa system to stop them reaching Heathrow. "We would have to amend the Race Relations Act and possibly opt out of the Human Rights Act if we wanted a special visa system that applied only to Pakistan but not other countries," said my source, who gave every impression he was considering doing both.
In full

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/26/pakistan-taliban-nick-cohen

One things for sure we are past the highwater mark of Globalisation.
If Civil war breaks out they will come in their millions... there is nothing anyone can, or indeed will do to stop it. Welcome to the HRA and decades of bending over national interest and colonial guilt coming home to roost.
 
#5
Sorry to add, if a rigorous system of letting a tiny number into the UK was enforced, immigrants might actually feel a sense of gratitude and great fortune to be allowed in. I have been to Pakistan a number of times and let me tell you that the UK is seen as weak and a meal ticket.... no doubt about that whatsoever

Sorry rambling now
 
#6
Don't get me wrong I am no supporter of the current immigration policies but we cannot wipe our hands of the Pakistan problem and say it is not our problem for two reasons.

1. This country did a horrendous amount of damage to that region during our Empirical jaunts; carving up the region with silly lines on maps that meant nothing to the indigenous population - the Durrand line is a good example.

2. ( and most important by far) This country can ill afford to have a failed nation state in that part of the world. To do so would create a terrorist organisation with the military/civil/economic machinery of a recognised government.

If we fail to support Pakistan now then the cost will be far higher down range.
 
#7
PCLG said:
Don't get me wrong I am no supporter of the current immigration policies but we cannot wipe our hands of the Pakistan problem and say it is not our problem for two reasons.

1. This country did a horrendous amount of damage to that region during our Empirical jaunts; carving up the region with silly lines on maps that meant nothing to the indigenous population - the Durrand line is a good example.

2. ( and most important by far) This country can ill afford to have a failed nation state in that part of the world. To do so would create a terrorist organisation with the military/civil/economic machinery of a recognised government.

If we fail to support Pakistan now then the cost will be far higher down range.
Agreed.IIRC Pakistan has nuclear capability-imagine that geting into the 'wrong' hands. :!:
 
#8
I am sure that India is probably more nervous of this issue than we are, half a world away. On the immigration issue, I agre with an earlier poster. If the immigration screening is done well then we should certainly help out.
 
#9
PCLG said:
This country did a horrendous amount of damage to that region during our Empirical jaunts; carving up the region with silly lines on maps that meant nothing to the indigenous population
Agreed, we did a lot of damage. A bloody long time ago.

Do we still hold modern Germans culpable for the behaviour of their Grandfathers/Great Grandfathers for carving up Europe and the death camps? No. That was 60ish years ago, as was the partition of India.
Governments "down there" have had plenty of time and plenty of foreign investment to get their act together. We have allowed huge amounts of immigration from Pakistan since then. It would not surprise me if in some way this has exacerbated the situation by allowing hundreds of thousands of possible moderates to move here. Thus leaving room for the bad gits to get in to positions of influence within the current government of Pakistan.

But no, we are not responsible, we can ill afford (financially & militarily) more peacekeeping duties in that region, can you imagine the backlash in the UK from the current crop of militant muslims we have at home if we were to even try and stick our noses into Pakistan today?

PCLG said:
If we fail to support Pakistan now then the cost will be far higher down range.
If it all goes tits up, buckets of instant sunshine all round :D
 
#10
we need to try and prop up pakistan as the alternative is too horrendous to even contemplate.

FWIW if we took lots of pakistani's we would get lots of people who would make a net contribution to the country, professional people, enterpenurs, even just plain old hardworkers etc and HRA or know HRA it would be our duty to take our fair share.... but not our unfair share.

trotsky
 
#13
armchair_jihad said:
This conflict is going to release an absolute flood of refugess looking for a safe haven, the vast majority of these will be the holders of western values and in many cases educations.
'Vast majority', 'western values' ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
#15
Fallschirmjager said:
We'll be a muslim state within two hundred years anyway, so let them all in.
A more realsitic estimate is 50 years mate
 
#17
Refuse to allow Gurkha soldiers to settle in the UK, but throw open the gates to tens of thousands of Pakis who have done fcuk-all for this country?

Yeah, that sounds like classic ZANU-Labour to me. :evil:
 
#18
Tawahi-50 said:
armchair_jihad said:
This conflict is going to release an absolute flood of refugess looking for a safe haven, the vast majority of these will be the holders of western values and in many cases educations.
'Vast majority', 'western values' ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'd say the vast majority of those Pakistanis most likely to be seeking asylum do have Western values, in that they've been educated in the UK, see the British way as best and want secular values in government.

Pakistanis have voted in secular governments every time they've been given a choice; pity the poor sods haven't had the choice more often.

They're also far better people each than any number of our unwashed could hope to be. Any chance we could offer a two for one swap on chavs? We get a hard working family man who wants to get on with things in peace and the Taliban get a slack handful of infidels to behead whenever they need to show how well the jihad's going. Winners all round.
 
#19
armchair_jihad said:
I have been thinking about this a lot recently and the article below from todays Observer by my favorite leftie writer Nick Cohen has prompted this post.

Hopefully it won't get holed or hijacked, Its my firm belief that Pakistan is on the way out and it will break up into a number of States - its default position. This conflict is going to release an absolute flood of refugess looking for a safe haven, the vast majority of these will be the holders of western values and in many cases educations. In addition many will have blood relatives as UK Citizens.

What to do?

If there are millions there who hold western values then they should be prepared to learn from history why those values are upheld. They should be prepared to fight for them. We all saw the police at the recent cricket team fiasco, these people are cowards period. no wonder they have respect for a group that is going to put order into their miserable lives.
I admit that we led the way towards giving into terrorism but we never realistically handed over xmg to the IRA in the way that pakis has done.
 
#20
Why not throw open the doors?
Shortsighted by a long margin, Western values, they despise the West and all it stands for.
Maybe the first generation of refugees would be grateful, their multitude of offspring of the second and third generation, will turn out just the same as the second and third generations that are currently residing in UK.
Wake up, shut the door, they have done nothing for Britain, except send money and assistance to their relatives in Pakistan, allowing even greater numbers to congregate in UK, turning may I add, some places into NO GO areas.
Big mistake, let em sort out their own mess.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads