Like it or loathe it PAAB is there, hell I liked it so much I had a couple of

So what are REME doing with it now.....chopping a day off the length whilst forming a queue of fresh Class 1's to have a crack at the end of their course! I'm sorry, I thought self-motivation was supposed to come into it somewhere.....or at least it used to.

Now it's been devalued to the level of Tesco Value Baked Beans why don't we just give everyone a mandatory pass......after all competition just creates animosity and we don't want that in our new model Corps! Next we'll be offering scrotes a few grand to stay in longer than NAAFI break so they can go on a downgraded JMC....hang on, we already do....roll on my 22 before this ship sinks completely.
Check out the published PAAB results and you find as many failing (in whatever category) as passing. Would not surprise me if this results in even more bitter & twisted Tiffy haters who refuse to even contemplate having another go.
Much too soon to "encourage" people to attempt a PAAB in my opinion. Some people mature/develope much later than others.
they have obviously put the paab in the class 1 cse, to stop all the pot tiffy's break the door down with the rush too attend it,(not!).
instead of trying to solve the problems, of why no-one wants to go tiffy. they are forcing every body to attempt it. hoping once you've pased, you'll do the course. so we'll get even more c**p filtering through the system.

and yes i am a bitter and twisted artisan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It used to be the case that everyone was in the Army for what they could get out of it, I certainly didn't join up to go and fight in Iraq(a**ehole of the world) but to get a trade and some quals that meant something for when I got out. That meant at least giving the Tiffy selection a crack and try to get on every course going. The young lads (and lasses) coming through the machine now couldn't give a fcuk about PAAB, the attitude of "anythging for an easy life or I'm out" is widespread and the vast majority can't even see themselves still in after their 12 year point.

As black-hand said, we will be getting even more dross through the system by trying to trap them after their Class 1. The pay and civvy qual incentive for Tiffy's is a joke at the moment. Many young'uns would rather skip all the hassle of a Tiffy course; looking after baby admin nightmares, trying to condense cheat sheets to miniscule print and breathe life into old projects when cut and pasting! They are willing to accept the loss of pay and harnessed promotion because they probably wont be in that long anyway.

The answer...well it's all bad I'm afraid. We live in a society that wont let us(officially) clip the ear of a little scrote let alone change his bad attitude, the days of 6 week exercises in Germany that were actually looked forward to and enjoyable are well and truly over and standards have sadly dropped. The PAAB will be subject to criticism and ridicule until it is changed in some way as to make it a goal that is strived for by the cream of our Corps and that isn't about to happen in my time.

Just for the record I am an Artisan, I had a damn good go at the PAAB and didn't make it, but anybody would be foolish not to give it their best shot whenever they can. I don't consider myself bitter and twisted at all but rather envy you Tiffy b***ards for getting a little bit more out of the Army than I managed, I'll never tell you that face to face of course! :wink:

Do they reserve car parking spaces for non-disabled people at the Paralympics?
I think doing the PAAB at the end of your class 1 is a good idea.
It means that all tradesmen get a chance to have a crack, not just those who impress their current OC, BEME and Comd ES.

There also seems to be a lot of peer pressure on pot Tiffies. Bitter old full screws without the bottle to have a go at PAAB belittle those with the guts to have a go.

Also there is the stigma of applying and failing - at least now those who don't make it can say they had to it :)

Just my couple of cents worth....
The Corps ASM mentions the attitude of PAAB attendees in the latest DEME(A) bulletin. He is amazed that those attending don't throw themselves into it with gusto.

I remember (a long long time ago admittedly) on my Class 1, every man jack of us couldn't wait to get back to the real world. The last thing we wanted was to stay there any longer than necessary, so those there now probably feel the same.

As for all tradesmen having the opportunity, don't you think it would be fairer to allow every tradesman to apply to attend, even if they are not in a recognised feeder trade, without being vetted by their COC?
Hi Spanna,

Yeah, that would be an option, but hen it makes life easier for the PAAB admin people to have a 'captive' audience doesn't it?
Also, now no-one can say that they couldn't attend due to Op Commitments/Exercise/TECHEVAL etc. etc.

I must say that at the end of my Class 1 I couldn't wait to get back to my unit - but then I was back 6 weeks later doing my approved welder, it was either that or stag on for 4 weeks (Inf had a Royal Visitor, REMEs stagged on - same old same old)
As a "young Scrote" not yet class 1 tradesman here is my point of limited view. The PAAB whilst on class 1 is not a good idea. Why? well before i can attempt to go tiffy if i pass a PAAB, i need to pass my class 1 and that is where my concentration will be on passing my class 1. One hurdle at a time rather than two. Having two friends on PAAB at this very moment they tell me it is still very difficult. One is already a class 1 the other is still finishing it.

Why make life more difficult if it must be on the class one should it not be at the end. an extra couple of days for those that want to do it.
How would you improve it if you could?
i Would probably add some Tiffy Dialemas of a dirfferent type.

The welfare Type

Role play

Soldier approaches tiff with problem how does he/she react.

Any one else any ideas
The simple answer to the 'using my concentration on my class 1' is : Don't sweat it.
PAAB is not about the preparation of superb essays, dilemmas and so on. PAAB is about looking at you as a future leader. Sure, the essays etc give an indication, but it isn't everything.
There are Tiffs out there who are dyslexic for example - one's even a Captain now.
As for the role play etc. the Pot Tiffs are trained in welfare & problem solving during their course, why asses them on something they are not yet trained in?
Quick one Nige. As for the training tiffs are given on their course for welfare and the like, it's pish. We spend about 1 full day watching our mates 'on screen', with really pathetic problems. Everyone just ends up laughing and it proves to be a waste of time.
I done mine on ACFC2, just after ACFC1 (back when it was worth attending it), so t was a welcome break from running around Wales with a bergen on yer back.

I also just heard that even after the ACFC1 was reduced to 3 days, they're going to change the entire couse to make it a degree.

Ah! less man management skills and more academics. Just what future leaders need!

If you can't join them, kick them in the groin until you can!!
Wedge, the courses change all the time, on my ACFCs we did a few days on welfare issues, counselling, even some negotiating skills. We wweren't welfare officers at the end of it but we knew who had the relevant info.

Like most things though, it doesn't matter what you teach someone, they'll still be a knob in a unit. :roll:

By the way, when was ACFC1 ever worth attending? Mine was SMC again, with bigger dicks as DS.
It's all well and good loving or loathing the new PAAB system but the bottom line is when looking at the recent cse lists and there are individuals who only passed their class 1's 18 months to 2 yrs ago!
The VM's on Eastenders for example have more experience! As for their engineering knowledge they may be good in Bordon but unfortunately in the field army engines aren't on rigs and bolts aren't finger tight!!
As for management and diplomacy skills, well I ask you if hand on heart anyone out there believes a 25/26 year old has the life skills....I think not :?:
Good points there hingme. I aggree totally with what you're saying. And the point is........Scrap the new PAAB system and concentrate on achieving an incentive which may bring the experienced tradesmen back into the tiffy stream. I'm halfway through my course at the moment and have been in for 15 years now. ( Transferred from RE).
There's a couple of guys on my tiffy course who have only been in for about 5 years. They've become arrogant towards the junior ranks with the sudden jump in ranks and will be the typical '****' tiffy's.
Not a good advertisement for the young guys in the units to inspire them to be tiffy's.

This last post of yours contradicts your previous one on the subject:
How can you judge the quality of the management training you will receive?

If you are still on your course, you cannot possibly know what benefit it will have.

Why not wait until you are in a Tiff Post to see what benefits you get from it. You will also get management training on your CLM courses, so don't think that REME will teach you everything you need to be a leader.
Maybe I didn't put my point accross as well as I thought Nige. All I was saying was that rather than fill the tiffy courses with inexperienced 'boys', an incentive should be introduced to get the experienced troops interested in the tiffy process again.
I know alot of guys, who's only reason for turning the tiffy selection down was there was no real incentive for the training they would do.

I, on the other hand, have been wanting to go tiffy for about the last 8 years. I'm not slagging the course off, or the training you recieve. I just think the courses should be filled with soldiers rather than kiddies.

I guess I did misunderstand your post, I too can't be doing with 'career' tiffs aged 20. I still like the idea of PAAB after Class 1 though, maybe now we'll get more metalsmiths going tiffy!
Nige, as a Metalsmith SNCO I can safely say that after being selected to go Tiff and PO, my judgements in earlier years have been confirmed. I knew and have known lots of fellow tradesman who have pursued the path of Artificer, many blind to the system, and many whom by the knowledge of friends knew what was coming at them. I personally have known lots of people who have attended and passed their Artificer course and many more who have been thrown by the wayside, because their beliefs on the way the Army should be, did not match what the "Selection Board" wanted to hear. Is it not in our Modern Army that we have "Brainstorming"? ( A method of solving a problem, and finding solutions. A better way for everyone.) If this was the case then the "Selection Board" should be willing to listen to an individuals point of view, and NOT sit listening to what they expect to hear.
And to finish off, the reason I chose to stay as a Metalsmith was because at the end of the dayI go to work and they can throw anything at me, I achieve it, I go home at night and I look forward to going back to work the next day to do it all again. Why give it up? How many Artificers can say that?
I think the answer is in the amount of "NEW" soldiers willing to apply and attend PAAB.
PS. NIGE. A Metalsmith joins to be a Tradesman and Craftsman who can Manufacture, fix, and produce. If s/he chooses to go "Tiffy" then I think it was a poor decision at the Army Careers Office in the first place. :lol: A career in the RAF as an Engineering Officer is far more lucrative - you just have to look at the amount of tradesman our Corp has lost to the "Other Half" to see that it would make sense. "Misguided at the Careers Office to make up numbers". Sounds like the name for a good film to me.!!!!!

i think that this time in someones career is far too early, let people get back to thier units and get some experience. ive seen people who have come back of class 1 who have been promoted to full screw on it. they come back to the real world with a bang, they just have not got the experience to deal with it.

you should be looking at 2 years approx as a class 1 L/Cpl then promotion to Cpl. i personally dont think you should be going on a tiffy course till you have 11/12 yrs under your belt, that makes for someone who is 29-30 ish and with good experience.

i did my paab in 2000 and they went on and on about my age and how i was too young, (i was a 24 yr old VM(A) Cpl) ,now they are getting through well younger than i was at the time. (im not saying that was the only reason i got a 12DW)

i have since left the army, i was disillusioned with the REME (despite being a SNCO when i left) and personally think they could do things a lot better.

Does anyone else agree with me that there should be more emphasis on trade in the Corps? in my 13 yrs i met perhaps 1 tiffy that was an excellent tradesman who i thought, i know, if Cpl so-in-so dont know then tiff's the man he will know. Most tiffy's now (i speak for VM's here) dont know their arrse from their elbow on the trade front.

REME is drifting into a Kwik-Fit world, fitters, not mechanics, (and anyone still serving who wants to take up this point with me is more than welcome, im now working in the real world remember??) :twisted:
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