P8 MMA/MPA thread.

[Himmler74]

Apart from the Boxer, most of the recent purchases of foreign equipment for the British forces of importance were placed in the USA.

F-35
AH-64E
JLTV
E-7
P-8
CH-47
Ridgeback
Husky
Buffalo
Oshkosh HET
Javelin
MTVR
L129 rifle

To name a few. If you compare with France, if it fields an equivalent system as the above list, it is either French or european, except for the E-7.

Their is no claim of exceptionalism, just the willingness to stay autonomous and to keep the money and jobs home rather than in the USA.

There is also a capability gap between France and the UK, SH, Heavy air transpor, attack helicopters, LO fighters, even your meteor isn't the full fat version as you tend to flog it to anyone.

 

[oldsoak]

Meteor seeker is actually French in origin.
The reason why the FAF meteor isn't full fat is not the missile, it's the radar system on Rafale and how it communicates with the missile.

 

[Himmler74]

Meteor seeker is actually French in origin.
The reason why the FAF meteor isn't full fat is not the missile, it's the radar system on Rafale and how it communicates with the missile.

That’s strange as it has ASEA.

 

[oldsoak]

That’s strange as it has ASEA.

Think it is so it can still work with existing mica missiles, but don't quote me on this.

 

[fantassin]

Only due to it being “gifted”. They wanted the F35

Greece is paying 2 billions Euros for the Rafale.

Some gift.

 

[CrashTestDummy]

Greece is paying 2 billions Euros for the Rafale.

Some gift.

Is that 2bn of the money that Germany, under the guise if the EUropean bank, lent them?

 

[Himmler74]

Greece is paying 2 billions Euros for the Rafale.

Some gift.

And with most French military sales you have given them credit at favourable rates.

 

[fantassin]

Maybe that's why France still has a defence industry and full order books for the Rafale?

 

[Gravelbelly]

That’s strange as it has ASEA.

That's AESA...

The original RBE2 radar in Rafale was a PESA setup [1]; it didn't instantly outperform the lump in the front of Typhoon, whatever the "elEctr0n1c sCanZ is AWESOMEST!" top trumps brigade would have you believe, but they've since upgraded it to an AESA set (although they don't say what proportion of their aircraft fleet has the new kit).

The full-fat bit isn't AIUI the datalink from the radar to the missile (lots of kit has that now; although originally it was less than you would have thought, if you'd listened to the 1990s manufacturers brochures). The full-fat bit is the datalink from the missile back to the radar. Typhoon and Gripen can both do this (unsurprisingly, because their radars are made by the same firms).

Meteor | Saab

Meteor is an advanced radar-guided, beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) that is superior to other missiles of its type. Meteor is a game changer.

www.saab.com

[1] PESA is basically the same as a mechanically-scanned radar; a GBFO travelling-wave tube, except that all the energy is pumped out through phase shifters rather than being pointed by a big round slotted lump of metal. This means that off-axis performance is limited, but scan speed is better [4]. For reference, the AN/SPY-1 on those US Navy "Aegis" ships is a PESA system, while the Type 45's "SAMPSON" is a true AESA [2].

[2] AESA generally means that instead of one big transmitter/receiver and a lot of phase shifters, there's an array of lots of small transmitter/receivers [3]. So (in theory) you can do all sorts of fun stuff with bits of the antenna, and you don't need all the complicated pipework behind it; hence why they have to mount SPY-1 to the ship's superstructure, but could choose to mount SAMPSON on top of the mast...

[3] The performance of each small Tx/Rx module, multiplied by [all the modules in the array] tells you a lot about the radar concerned; which is another reason why open-source pictures of AESA radars tend to be done with the protective cover in place, so you can't count them... a bigger antenna area also means more Tx/Rx modules, means m0Ar t0TAl p0WeR!, means that because Typhoon has a bigger nosecone than Rafale, it can fit a more powerful radar for similar-performance Tx/Rx modules.

[4] Scan speed isn't the be-all and end-all. You still need to put X amount of energy into each part of the sky, to see if there's anything there; scanning that volume electronically rather than mechanically doesn't really change that requirement, you're still going to need to scan at a set rate as part of your radar's performance. Where it's useful is if you want to flick between "keep scanning the sky for Biggleski" and "oh, and could you get some really detailed data on those priority targets, over there".

 

[Himmler74]

Maybe that's why France still has a defence industry and full order books for the Rafale?

Who for?

 

[fantassin]

India, Qatar, Greece and France.

Egypt has already received its full complement of 24 Rafale ordered in 2018.

Additional indian orders are possible.

IAF chief Bhadauria does not rule out procurement of more Rafale fighter jets - Times of India

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria on Monday did not rule out procurement of more Rafale jets, and said the induction of the French-made multi-role aircraft has given the Indian Air Force an operational edge to strike "deep and hard". The Chief of Air Staff also said the govt is...

m.timesofindia.com

 

[Himmler74]

India, Qatar, Greece and France.

Egypt has already received its full complement of 24 Rafale ordered in 2018.

Additional indian orders are possible.

IAF chief Bhadauria does not rule out procurement of more Rafale fighter jets - Times of India

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria on Monday did not rule out procurement of more Rafale jets, and said the induction of the French-made multi-role aircraft has given the Indian Air Force an operational edge to strike "deep and hard". The Chief of Air Staff also said the govt is...

m.timesofindia.com

Very successful then.

 

[fantassin]

Sufficiently successful to insure national autonomy, to maintain an autonomous R&D and industrial base and to keep the money and jobs home.

 

[PhotEx]

Maybe that's why France still has a defence industry and full order books for the Rafale?

Nothing to do with the tres beaucoup stench of corruption et numbered Swiss bank accounts that surrounds Frances defence deals?

 

[Himmler74]

Sufficiently successful to insure national autonomy, to maintain an autonomous R&D and industrial base and to keep the money and jobs home.

Laughs “Tempest”,

 

[Gravelbelly]

Nothing to do with the tres beaucoup stench of corruption et numbered Swiss bank accounts that surrounds Frances defence deals?

...sigh. Remind us again about Al-Yamamah?

 

[Cold_Collation]

...sigh. Remind us again about Al-Yamamah?

"Mark, how did you come to be so wealthy with such little apparent talent?"

 

[History_Man]

"Mark, how did you come to be so wealthy with such little apparent talent?"

Official deliverer of the brown envelopes?

 

[Gravelbelly]

"Mark, how did you come to be so wealthy with such little apparent talent?

As with Mitterand's son (@fantassin should be able to correct me here) - IIRC his business deals in Africa led to him being nicknamed "Papamadi" - from the French, "Papa m'a dit" ("Daddy told me")

 

[fantassin]

As with Mitterand's son (@fantassin should be able to correct me here) - IIRC his business deals in Africa led to him being nicknamed "Papamadi" - from the French, "Papa m'a dit" ("Daddy told me")

Exactement. The international of Socialist Free Masons was also a key tenet of the Mitterand years in Africa.