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P8 MMA/MPA thread.

Hippohunter

War Hero
It appears that Germany are looking to replace their eight Orion MPA.
From Defense Industry Daily:
"Replacement in Germany According to Reuters
external link
, the naval air arm of the German Navy will look for a replacement of its P-3C. The service has decided against upgrading the aircraft in favor of buying a new platform, a confidential ministry document reviewed by Reuters showed. It has become expensive to maintain the Orion. The alternatives being evaluated are the C295, RAS 72 and P-8A. "

A huge difference in capability between P-8A and the two twin turbo-props mentioned.
I can only assume that the RAS 72 is in-play is because it has been developed in Germany and has been ordered by the navy of Pakistan.[ The RAS 72 – RAS Special Mission Aircraft]
With important North and Baltic Sea considerations I doubt the Germans will go for a 10 year gap in MPA capability like we did.
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
With important North and Baltic Sea considerations I doubt the Germans will go for a 10 year gap in MPA capability like we did.
Everyone should, the airframe is sound, the mission modules are very upgradable.


The French won’t.
 
Update on the Franco-German MPA program called MAWS:

In July 2019, the General Delegate for Armaments [DGA], Joël Barre, told MPs that he hoped to be able to notify the first system architecture study relating to the MAWS [Maritime Airborne Warfare Systems] program by the end of that year. However, he did not.

As a reminder, the MAWS project must be carried out within the framework of Franco-German cooperation. It aims to renew the maritime patrol [PATMAR] assets by relying on a "system of systems", like the SCAF [Air combat system of the future]. The aim is to replace the Atlantique 2 of the French Navy [and, until then, the P3C of the Deutsche Marine] MPAs by a new system which would be at the center of a network of sensors [anti-submarine warfare capabilities, satellites, drones, etc.].

In March, it was reported that this program was at a standstill, on the French side, due to difficulties over the choice of manufacturers, the choice of Thales made by the DGA not having convinced everyone at the time. Finally, during a press conference given on October 23, Mr. Barre said that the lights have turned green.

Thus, a feasibility and system architecture study must be notified soon to a consortium called THED which will be formed by Thales and the German companies Hensoldt, ESG [Elektroniksystem] and Diehl. This first step reflects a “system approach” of the project. Dassault Aviation and Airbus will only step in later - that is, when the time is right to develop a new air "platform".

If such a program is important for European strategic autonomy, it is undoubtedly even more important for the autonomy of France, given that the maritime patrol capabilities are essential for nuclear deterrence in general, and for nuclear submarines in particular.

In addition, the development of this MAWS concerns many areas, from electronic warfare to radars, including sonar, data links, weaponry, acoustic buoys and communication systems.

However, in June, a complication arose with the announcement of the early retirement of the P3C Orions of the Deutsche Marine, while the French Atlantique 2 are being modernized to extend their service life until 2035.

Indeed, according to the explanations given by the German Ministry of Defense, the modernization of the P3C Orion would represent too high a "financial and technical risk". Hence their replacement of the P-3Cs by 2025 at the latest. Among the competing aircraft are the RAS 72 "Sea Eagle" from Rheinland Air Service, the C-295 MPA from Airbus and the P8A Poseidon from Boeing.

But, in front of the press, the DGA warned: the aeronautical “platform” which will be selected under the MAWS must be “European”. It remains to be seen what Berlin decides.
 
Update on the Franco-German MPA program called MAWS:

In July 2019, the General Delegate for Armaments [DGA], Joël Barre, told MPs that he hoped to be able to notify the first system architecture study relating to the MAWS [Maritime Airborne Warfare Systems] program by the end of that year. However, he did not.

As a reminder, the MAWS project must be carried out within the framework of Franco-German cooperation. It aims to renew the maritime patrol [PATMAR] assets by relying on a "system of systems", like the SCAF [Air combat system of the future]. The aim is to replace the Atlantique 2 of the French Navy [and, until then, the P3C of the Deutsche Marine] MPAs by a new system which would be at the center of a network of sensors [anti-submarine warfare capabilities, satellites, drones, etc.].

In March, it was reported that this program was at a standstill, on the French side, due to difficulties over the choice of manufacturers, the choice of Thales made by the DGA not having convinced everyone at the time. Finally, during a press conference given on October 23, Mr. Barre said that the lights have turned green.

Thus, a feasibility and system architecture study must be notified soon to a consortium called THED which will be formed by Thales and the German companies Hensoldt, ESG [Elektroniksystem] and Diehl. This first step reflects a “system approach” of the project. Dassault Aviation and Airbus will only step in later - that is, when the time is right to develop a new air "platform".

If such a program is important for European strategic autonomy, it is undoubtedly even more important for the autonomy of France, given that the maritime patrol capabilities are essential for nuclear deterrence in general, and for nuclear submarines in particular.

In addition, the development of this MAWS concerns many areas, from electronic warfare to radars, including sonar, data links, weaponry, acoustic buoys and communication systems.

However, in June, a complication arose with the announcement of the early retirement of the P3C Orions of the Deutsche Marine, while the French Atlantique 2 are being modernized to extend their service life until 2035.

Indeed, according to the explanations given by the German Ministry of Defense, the modernization of the P3C Orion would represent too high a "financial and technical risk". Hence their replacement of the P-3Cs by 2025 at the latest. Among the competing aircraft are the RAS 72 "Sea Eagle" from Rheinland Air Service, the C-295 MPA from Airbus and the P8A Poseidon from Boeing.

But, in front of the press, the DGA warned: the aeronautical “platform” which will be selected under the MAWS must be “European”. It remains to be seen what Berlin decides.
There's more than just France and Germany involved in this however. Canada, Poland, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Greece were also involved to varying degrees. If Germany has effectively dropped out, then it will be interesting to see if the program is reconfigured.

I got the impression that Canada was not going to simply buy the same MPA as France and Germany. Rather, I think the intention was to jointly develop the sensors, electronics, and software, and then pick what we wanted out of it and packaged it into our own choice of aircraft.

The other smaller countries were looking at using a more basic MPA, rather than the same one as France and Germany.

From the list of aircraft that Germany are looking it, it appears that they may not have decided yet on whether to buy a full-on MMA, or whether to buy a smaller and less capable, but cheaper one.
 
There's more than just France and Germany involved in this however. Canada, Poland, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Greece were also involved to varying degrees. If Germany has effectively dropped out, then it will be interesting to see if the program is reconfigured.

I got the impression that Canada was not going to simply buy the same MPA as France and Germany. Rather, I think the intention was to jointly develop the sensors, electronics, and software, and then pick what we wanted out of it and packaged it into our own choice of aircraft.

The other smaller countries were looking at using a more basic MPA, rather than the same one as France and Germany.

From the list of aircraft that Germany are looking it, it appears that they may not have decided yet on whether to buy a full-on MMA, or whether to buy a smaller and less capable, but cheaper one.

The article is translated so maybe that's how you got the impression that Germany was dropping out but it is not the case. At least not yet !
 
The article is translated so maybe that's how you got the impression that Germany was dropping out but it is not the case. At least not yet !
If the Germans are replacing their P3s with something else in 2025, why would they then need something new in 2035?

France are upgrading their Atlantique 2s to extend their life until 2035. Canada are doing the same with their Auroras. Germany were going to do the same with their P3s, but now they are looking at simply replacing them in 2025 with something available now. I don't see where Germany still fits into this?
 
From what l understand, I think that Germany is after a stop gap solution at the moment.

Ok, you have the Atlantiques being updated to new sensors etc - if I were the Germans, I'd move the same sensor suite onto the P3.
There's nothing else like the Atlantique in Europe. Nothing with its size, weapons payload and range. Until you get a A320 MPA, you either have the Atlantique or P3 which have the space, power and range to be useful. The P8, while very suitable is out of the question and is certainly not European. The P3 is a known quantity having been operated by Germany, Holland , Denmark etc. Unless you open production lines for the Atlantique , Germany is stuck.
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
The article is translated so maybe that's how you got the impression that Germany was dropping out but it is not the case. At least not yet !
Is France buying the P8?
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
And yet France has been entirely happy to buy the E-2C and D, the E-3F and the C-130 and KC-130.
But won’t buy CH47, which they rely on us for, to be honest there meteor isn’t full fat either.
 
France only purchase US equipment when there is no other choice, and generally in small numbers.

What is wrong with prefering to buy French or EU made equipment ?

Nothing, but in the absence of any other solution, the P-8 appears to be a good option and would give commonality with allies.
 
Ah, the famous commonality...when it's US it's commonality, when it's French or EU it's duplication...always the same story, just like NATO and CSDP.

And yet F-35, for example, has been sold to Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, the UK, Italy and Poland. The US has authorised as a FMS to Finland and Switzerland too, although it seems more likely that they will buy the F-18E/F.

A degree of commonality is good in a military alliance...
 
And yet F-35, for example, has been sold to Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, the UK, Italy and Poland. The US has authorised as a FMS to Finland and Switzerland too, although it seems more likely that they will buy the F-18E/F.

A degree of commonality is good in a military alliance...

I agree it's a goiden alibi to establish hegemony.
 

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