P8 MMA/MPA thread.

#2
Thank the Lord!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::excited::excited::excited::excited::pounce::pounce::pounce::pounce::judge::judge::judge::judge::party::party::party::party::worship::worship::worship::worship:

Obviously there's an awful lot more to come out on this but the news on P-8 is absolutely fantastic and is testament to a lot of work by some very dedicated and forward thinking people. I can't say how relieved I am!

The mention of the overland role also suggests we'll be getting AAS.

Regards,
MM
 
#3
Thank the Lord!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::excited::excited::excited::excited::pounce::pounce::pounce::pounce::judge::judge::judge::judge::party::party::party::party::worship::worship::worship::worship:

Obviously there's an awful lot more to come out on this but the news on P-8 is absolutely fantastic and is testament to a lot of work by some very dedicated and forward thinking people. I can't say how relieved I am!

The mention of the overland role also suggests we'll be getting AAS.

Regards,
MM

The people in the RAF who drove SEEDCORN through the wilderness years and never lost faith need a truckload of BZ's.
 
H

HIDAS

Guest
#4
So, I see that the Sentinel R1 is being retained :boogie::number1::clap::party:
Hopefully with the maritime upgrade to it's radar? With the P-8 that would make a very powerful combo; The R1 carrying out routine MRR patrol type work and the P-8 offering more sophisticated capability
 
T

Tinman74

Guest
#5
So, I see that the Sentinel R1 is being retained :boogie::number1::clap::party:
Hopefully with the maritime upgrade to it's radar? With the P-8 that would make a very powerful combo; The R1 carrying out routine MRR patrol type work and the P-8 offering more sophisticated capability
Or just let the sentinel do why it's Doing,

Horses for courses, raptor on T would be amaze balls
 
#6
So, I see that the Sentinel R1 is being retained :boogie::number1::clap::party:
Hopefully with the maritime upgrade to it's radar? With the P-8 that would make a very powerful combo; The R1 carrying out routine MRR patrol type work and the P-8 offering more sophisticated capability
I've never understood the rush to fund a maritime capability to Sentinel. If you do, you have a basic maritime plot without any augmenting data or the C2 capacity to get it anywhere. In contrast, the E-3D already has an excellent surveillance radar with several dedicated and purpose designed maritime modes and numerous other capabilities which make it far better suited to such secondary tasks than Sentinel.

In a perfect world, give me maritime on Sentinel. However, I can think of several capabilities I'd rather fund on that platform beforehand.

Instead, I note that there is mention that our P-8s will have an overland surveillance role. Hopefully, that means we'll be getting the Advanced Airborne Sensor which will allow the P-8 to replace Sentinel in the overland role. In that respect, the 2025 date is about right.

Regards,
MM
 
#7
Instead, I note that there is mention that our P-8s will have an overland surveillance role. Hopefully, that means we'll be getting the Advanced Airborne Sensor which will allow the P-8 to replace Sentinel in the overland role. In that respect, the 2025 date is about right.
Is there space to get it earlier without, and then upgrade? I thought that the need was rather pressing.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#8
Or just let the sentinel do why it's Doing,

Horses for courses, raptor on T would be amaze balls
Dealing with "existential" threats?
 
#9
Is there space to get it earlier without, and then upgrade? I thought that the need was rather pressing.
I doubt we'll see AAS on RAF P-8s until it's well established in the Maritime environment and we've plugged our ASW gap. The radar can be fitted retrospectively and is technically removable so this is not a drama. What will be interesting is whether we look to a small follow-on buy of P-8 for the AAS task as, realistically, the AAS canoes (if that's what we're getting) will not be getting swapped regularly between jets.

The extension of Sentinel allows us to make a more measured plan for maintaining the increasingly important SAR/GMTI task across relevant fleets.

Regards,
MM
 
#10
3 in service by 2020? Christ, that'll be 20 years after I did my 737 NG course! Shame the UK version can't have the Leap engines and Max flightdeck.....now there's an idea.


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#11
Navy wants a pair seats in the back of each P-8 for it's ASW people.
P-8 is seen by the RN as a vital enabler for carrier strike and deterrence protection.
LOL! I would agree entirely that P-8 will be a vital enabler for SSBN and QEC. However, I seem to recall that the Senior Service were, prior to SDSR, very keen to disassociate MMA costs from said capabilities!

I hope that RN observers and aircrewmen do augment RAF aircrew, particularly with generating the initial crews. However, I can't really see both acoustics seats going to the RN on a permanent basis; even if they can generate the additional aircrew required, the RAF has a pretty impressive fixed wing ASW pedigree and acoustics operators won't just be operating acoustics!

Regards,
MM
 
#12
LOL! I would agree entirely that P-8 will be a vital enabler for SSBN and QEC. However, I seem to recall that the Senior Service were, prior to SDSR, very keen to disassociate MMA costs from said capabilities!

I hope that RN observers and aircrewmen do augment RAF aircrew, particularly with generating the initial crews. However, I can't really see both acoustics seats going to the RN on a permanent basis; even if they can generate the additional aircrew required, the RAF has a pretty impressive fixed wing ASW pedigree and acoustics operators won't just be operating acoustics!

Regards,
MM
See my post 306 in the SDSR 2015 thread. Beyond 1 x ASW Obs and 1 x ASW Acmn, they aren't interested.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#13
Highlights from the MMA thread in the RN forum to kick start talk of the future now the aircraft is going to become real.
 
#16
LOL! I would agree entirely that P-8 will be a vital enabler for SSBN and QEC. However, I seem to recall that the Senior Service were, prior to SDSR, very keen to disassociate MMA costs from said capabilities!

I hope that RN observers and aircrewmen do augment RAF aircrew, particularly with generating the initial crews. However, I can't really see both acoustics seats going to the RN on a permanent basis; even if they can generate the additional aircrew required, the RAF has a pretty impressive fixed wing ASW pedigree and acoustics operators won't just be operating acoustics!

Regards,
MM

There's a new broom in town, and 2SL now has a very different brief and is fiercely committed to joint. He made the very real point, UK SSNs, ASW Frigates and ASW Helos have some of the best sonar people in the business and work the same patch, it makes absolute sense for the two Services to share experience, ability and knowledge.
Letting the poachers play with the gamekeepers makes both better.
 
#17
There's a new broom in town, and 2SL now has a very different brief and is fiercely committed to joint. He made the very real point, UK SSNs, ASW Frigates and ASW Helos have some of the best sonar people in the business and work the same patch, it makes absolute sense for the two Services to share experience, ability and knowledge.
Letting the poachers play with the gamekeepers makes both better.
Tbh, that's rather a statement of the bleeding obvious and normal business for the Kipper Fleet before the ASW business dried up in the 90s.

Regards,
MM
 
#18
Tbh, that's rather a statement of the bleeding obvious and normal business for the Kipper Fleet before the ASW business dried up in the 90s.

Regards,
MM

It's also a statement from the very top that interncine fighting between the two Services cost us both dearly and we need to work together. There will have to be a step change in operational doctrine with ASW and maritime ISTAR across both services with the shift to a Carrier Strike Group based doctrine.
Don't knock it, Ward and Co must absolutely hate hearing 1 and 2SL being utterly committed to and supportive of the RAFs corner and a buy of the very best MPA,(none of the cheap options so enamoured of by the pundits) and a full buy of F-35B.

And the AAS? Very clear case for that stellar capability once we have the carrier worked up. I'd watch that space.
 
#19
I think we're long past the bad old days of RN v RAF infighting which in my view was exaggerated due to unrepresentative people such as Ward, Page and May anyway. The good relations have been particularly evident with the current CAS (who of course completed a Wessex exchange with the RN and held a watchkeeping qualification) and 1SL.

Not sure that there needs to be that much of a step change in ASW doctrine with QEC frankly; both services are used to integrating with carriers from other nations. Moreover, fixed wing ASW support tends to be at a fair distance from High Value Units. Just some nuancing to reflect the increased emphasis on medium altitude ASW I suspect will suffice.

The real step change required in my view for QEC will be integrating the enormous J2 and J6 implications of F-35.

Regards,
MM
 
#20
This has been posted elsewhere by @meridian but it's probably worth placing the link here too.

There have long been several options available to the UK regarding how and when the RAF actually gets its hands on its first P-8S. Lease, FMS and direct purchase have all been floated. The approach by Fallon unfortunately suggests that we may have missed our chance with the 'spare' airframes which are in production.

However, Fallon raising this illustrates the urgency of filling the ASW gap and the fact that we already have the aircrew ready to go. A temporary lease of USN airframes may therefore allow us to re-establish a limited fixed wing ASW capability in the UK and in the new 'Atlantic Gap.' It may also facilitate training of additional crews to commence as well.

Meanwhile, in related news, it appears that the USAF and USN still remain unable to combine their respective overland surveillance needs! The USAF are continuing to examine a large business jet solution (augmented by the U-2S and RPAS) while the USN see the P-8 mounted APS-154 Advanced Airborne Sensor (AAS) as the solution.

Sometimes our own Jointery problems look quite trivial!

Regards,
MM
 

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