P1154

#41
I'll dig out the reference later, but effectively he was eligible for command due to seniority but had the common sense to back off and let the First handle it.
Same as the USN - one must be a naval aviator to command a carrier. many hadn't handled a ship for a decade or two, but 'leant on' their captain or exec.
My bold - that may have been the case in the past but certainly isn't so now (UK). Cdre Jerry Kyd, the Captain of HMS QNLZ, is a through-&-through GL Fishead.



See - no wings. Poor, tortured soul.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#42
My bold - that may have been the case in the past but certainly isn't so now (UK). RAdm Jerry Kyd, the late Captain of HMS QNLZ, is a through-&-through GL Fishead.



See - no wings. Poor, tortured soul.
 
#43
AIUI Brown had never done any manner of bridge watchkeeping (or whatever it was called back then!). He certainly didn't hold the relevant tickets, and hadn't done sea command exams, if I understand the terminology correctly.

Ergo, regrettably for Yokel's fantasies, he'd not have been able to command at sea.
It wasn’t Yokel, it was someone else.
 
#45
AIUI Brown had never done any manner of bridge watchkeeping (or whatever it was called back then!). He certainly didn't hold the relevant tickets, and hadn't done sea command exams, if I understand the terminology correctly.

Ergo, regrettably for Yokel's fantasies, he'd not have been able to command at sea.
What fantasies? Assuming you have read previous posts, you will have noted that I pointed out his lack of experience driving ships and not being able to exercise sea command. I did not suggest such a thing.

However Winkle Brown did spend some time post war aboard the ASW frigate Rocket based at Londonderry to gain bridge experience.

Edit: I have just looked in Wings On My Sleeve and he confirms it was in 1953 to get his Watchkeeping Certificate - but he did not have the sea jobs to consolidate that, and was busy with aviation jobs (and diplomatic - he was Naval Attache to West Germany) right up until retirement.
 
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#46
Being a former aviator is not a pre requisite for carrier command in the RN, and never has been. As for Winkle I think by the time CVA-01 came along he would have got to Flag Rank, in charge of Naval Flying Training as he states in his book.

Captain Brown was in the Admiralty and influenced the CVA-01 design. He was aware of the accident rate caused by operating fast jets from small decks. One of the innovations was to reduce the angle of the flight deck to being almost axial. CVA-01 and the current QEC have interesting parallels.

Getting back on thread, P1154 was far ahead of its time and the technology of the day, and the politics. Harrier was what could be achieved with a nozzled engine and a smaller jet. Sea Harrier took it to sea as a fighter aboard a 20 000 tonne ship - I doubt P1154 could have.
 
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seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#48
In the UN case I have always understood that it was Congress that mandated that the Captain of a carrier must be an aviator. Congress has a way of micro-managing 'Defense'.

In the RN one reason this could never have been a rule is that in 1918 all the bright and bushy tailed naval aviators were moved to the RAF. Therefore there were no pilots coming through to Cdr or Captain's rank in WW2 (nor senior aviators in the Admiralty). The results were various, from Lumley Lyster, a gunnery officer, who laid the foundations for the Taranto raid, to the CO of Glorious who got sunk off Norway (a long story, read John Winton's 'Carrier Glorious'). This last was a submariner who in WW1 had swum ashore from his boat and blown up a Turkish railway line. Post war, likely aviators alternated between flying appointments and successive sea command jobs.

CVA01 was indeed to be QE.
 
#49
In the UN case I have always understood that it was Congress that mandated that the Captain of a carrier must be an aviator. Congress has a way of micro-managing 'Defense'.

In the RN one reason this could never have been a rule is that in 1918 all the bright and bushy tailed naval aviators were moved to the RAF. Therefore there were no pilots coming through to Cdr or Captain's rank in WW2 (nor senior aviators in the Admiralty). The results were various, from Lumley Lyster, a gunnery officer, who laid the foundations for the Taranto raid, to the CO of Glorious who got sunk off Norway (a long story, read John Winton's 'Carrier Glorious'). This last was a submariner who in WW1 had swum ashore from his boat and blown up a Turkish railway line. Post war, likely aviators alternated between flying appointments and successive sea command jobs.

CVA01 was indeed to be QE.
Reading Nick Childs' Age of Invincible at present.
Fascinating.
 
#50
In the RN one reason this could never have been a rule is that in 1918 all the bright and bushy tailed naval aviators were moved to the RAF. Therefore there were no pilots coming through to Cdr or Captain's rank in WW2 (nor senior aviators in the Admiralty).
Not entirely true.

While the RNAS was absorbed into the newly formed RAF in 1918, as early as 1921 it had been agreed that only RN officers could fly as observers in RAF Fleet Air Arm aircraft. Subsequently, it was dictated that 70% of pilots in the same would be naval officers holding dual RN and RAF rank* (although in fairness I’m not sure what percentage was actually achieved).

Finally, a fair few very experienced RAF aircrew officers transferred to the RN when the FAA was fully returned to RN control in 1939 and at the outbreak of war. One example was Eugene Esmonde VC.

So I’d contend that there was a fair bit of relevant aviation experience available to the RN at the outbreak of World War 2.

Regards,
MM

* Ellis, Paul, ‘Aircraft of the Royal Navy’, Jane’s, London 1982.
 
#51
In the UN case I have always understood that it was Congress that mandated that the Captain of a carrier must be an aviator. Congress has a way of micro-managing 'Defense'.
It is true that the requirement to be an aviator is enshrined in law for the USN. Title 10 are the laws governing Defense.

10 U.S. Code § 5942 - Aviation commands: eligibility

(a)

(1) To be eligible to command an aircraft carrier or an aircraft tender, an officer must be an officer in the line of the Navy who is designated as a naval aviator or naval flight officer and who is otherwise qualified.

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to command of a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier that has been inactivated for the purpose of permanent decommissioning and disposal.

(b)
To be eligible to command a naval aviation school, a naval air station, or a naval aviation unit organized for flight tactical purposes, an officer must be an officer in the line of the Navy designated as a naval aviator or naval flight officer.

(c)
To be eligible to command a Marine Corps aviation school, a Marine Corps air station, or a Marine Corps aviation unit organized for flight tactical purposes, an officer must be an officer of the Marine Corps designated as a naval aviator or naval flight officer.

However, the story (true or not) is that the USN naval aviators during the 1920’s got their friends in Congress to pass the law so that a person who didn’t understand aviation would not be allowed to command an aviation ship.

Same as the USN - one must be a naval aviator to command a carrier. many hadn't handled a ship for a decade or two, but 'leant on' their captain or exec.
Not quite true. There is no requirement for any naval aviator to drive a ship during his or her career in the USN. You might get a conning alongside qualification for UNREPs but you do not stand bridge watches unless you are assigned to ship’s company for a disassociated sea tour.

However, when selected for potential CVN command, the prospective officer goes to Nuclear power school, then a lot of time in Newport for various schools and simulators. Next step is a tour as carrier XO and then a tour as commanding officer of a deep draft (read amphibious ship like LSD). Following that tour then you might be selected for CVN command.

Keep in mind that this USN requirement only applies to an actual aviation ship (CVN and LHA). Battle groups and task forces have been and can be commanded by a non-aviators (Flag Level).
 
#52
Great to hear from you again.

I think the point is that the CVN Captain does not go in cold, being a carrier XO and having an amphibious command will give solid command experience - and they would probably have had squadron command. Smaller Navies have to do things differently.

Back to P1154 - I started this thread as I remembered reading Project Cancelled by Derek Wood and he claimed P1154 would have given as a supersonic V/STOL fighter aboard the Invincible class. However - P1154 was much larger than Sea Harrier/Harrier, so how many could have been fitted on the deck of a 20 000 ship? Could Sea Kings still have been carried for ASW defence?

Or because it was originally meant to be a class of five, would we have ended up with task groups with two small carriers, one for ASW, and one for air defence and attack?

As far as carriers are concerned, bigger is better in every way.
 
#54
I recall reading Project Cancelled by Derek Wood (I think) many moons ago, and one of the cancelled projects he covered was P1154. It would have been V/STOL - powered by the Rolls Royce Pegasus I assume. It was cancelled because of political trouble making, RN/RAF spats, and the hope for a CTOL (and not STOVL) future for the RN's carriers, despite the fact the writing was on the wall for conventional carriers from the early/mid 1960s.

I think the book said two version were planned - a single seat ground attack version for the RAF, and a two seat version for the RN, optimised for air defence. I sometimes wonder:

1. If P1154 had been been continued, instead of P1127, would it have attracted the 'Harrier' name? Would it have attracted more foreign interest?

2. If it had been on the drawing board, then would the Invincible class CVS have been intended to carry them from the outset? Would this have meant a larger ship carrying more jets? Or did politics mean the design had to be described as a 'through deck cruiser'?

3. P1154 was, if I remember correctly, capable of supersonic flight. What difference would that have made in 1982?

4. What having an Observer have helped the 800/801 NAS Pilots detect the Argentine jets in 1982? I am assuming that the same Blue Fox radar is fitted, and the task group still lacks AEW.

5. If more fixed wing WAFUs got to Flag rank....

I was stationed at West Raynham (P1127 Trials Unit) when they lost a few pilots it became the Kestrel and then they lost more pilots and it became the Harrier.
 
#55
I was stationed at West Raynham (P1127 Trials Unit) when they lost a few pilots it became the Kestrel and then they lost more pilots and it became the Harrier.
...when they lost a load more pilots.

Iirc, the future AVM Ken Hayr was the first OC of 1 Sqn as it was re-equipping with the Harrier GR1 who actually completed his conversion without killing himself or going 'wibble.' Soon afterwards, they introduced a short helo course at Shawbury to familiarise FJ pilots with hovering and vertical flight and the accident rate lowered slightly.

Regards,
MM
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#56
...when they lost a load more pilots.

Iirc, the future AVM Ken Hayr was the first OC of 1 Sqn as it was re-equipping with the Harrier GR1 who actually completed his conversion without killing himself or going 'wibble.' Soon afterwards, they introduced a short helo course at Shawbury to familiarise FJ pilots with hovering and vertical flight and the accident rate lowered slightly.

Regards,
MM
Aircrew have a habit of killing themselves.
The post war accident figures for the RAF esp jet pilots were shocking (well by todays standards)
 
#57
Aircrew have a habit of killing themselves.
The post war accident figures for the RAF esp jet pilots were shocking (well by todays standards)
Hence why, as has been observed on numerous other threads, there's damn good reason why such as Typhoon and the F-35 took/are taking so long to get into squadron service.

People make comparisons based on historical norms when really they shouldn't.
 
#58
Aircrew have a habit of killing themselves.
The post war accident figures for the RAF esp jet pilots were shocking (well by todays standards)
Agreed.

However, the early days of RAF and USMC Harrier ops were particularly lethal at a time when overall safety levels were rapidly improving from the dark days of the 50s and 60s.

Regards,
MM
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#59
Not entirely true.

While the RNAS was absorbed into the newly formed RAF in 1918, as early as 1921 it had been agreed that only RN officers could fly as observers in RAF Fleet Air Arm aircraft. Subsequently, it was dictated that 70% of pilots in the same would be naval officers holding dual RN and RAF rank* (although in fairness I’m not sure what percentage was actually achieved).

Finally, a fair few very experienced RAF aircrew officers transferred to the RN when the FAA was fully returned to RN control in 1939 and at the outbreak of war. One example was Eugene Esmonde VC.

So I’d contend that there was a fair bit of relevant aviation experience available to the RN at the outbreak of World War 2.

Regards,
MM

* Ellis, Paul, ‘Aircraft of the Royal Navy’, Jane’s, London 1982.
I know all this but I think your presentation is a bit disingenuous unless you can find an example of any of these of sufficient seniority to have any sway over policy prior to 1939, or senior enough to command a carrier (Captain with at least four or five years in I should think).
 
#60
I know all this but I think your presentation is a bit disingenuous unless you can find an example of any of these of sufficient seniority to have any sway over policy prior to 1939, or senior enough to command a carrier (Captain with at least four or five years in I should think).
Richard Bell Davies VC immediately springs to mind. He - for example - could have commanded Furious when Alexander Ramsay was 'driving' that ship or if that was slightly too early, he might have commanded Glorious when he was captain of HMS Cornwall; the appointments to 'drive' those two ships were made at the same time, and a gunnery officer (Guy Royle) got the carrier, while the aviator got the cruiser... RB-D did, of course, finish his career in an aviation appointment as RADM Naval Air Stations (before returning as an RNR officer for three more years).

D'Oyly Hughes had learned to fly (the problem being that this led to his tendency to overrule his aviators, with disastrous results in 1940), but I can't recall exactly when in his career he did so. He was 'lent' to the RAF in 1930, and then went aboard Courageous as the Executive Officer the following year and thence to the Air Ministry.
 

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