P W Botha no more

#4
crabby said:
frenchperson said:
P W Botha, former racist leader of South Africa is dead:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6104332.stm




He died peacefully, unlike many of the victims of the sick regime that he defended to the end.
Just Nelson Mandela to go then. Two men who applied what they believed in ruthlessly, with deaths on both sides. No respect for either of them
Ahh,

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter is another man's politician. I can't feel too bad about either of them going.
 
#5
Those flowery shirts are a bit ruthless - got to agree. But it says a lot that Mandela and successors allowed Botha to live out the rest of his days peacefully - a bit of a contrast to what he received, being banged away for decades. Botha didn't have the courage to offer anything to truth and reconciliation either, the bitter and twisted racist chappy.
 
#6
frenchperson said:
Those flowery shirts are a bit ruthless - got to agree.
Now now. No need to be so b.itchy. :D

frenchperson said:
But it says a lot that Mandela and successors allowed Botha to live out the rest of his days peacefully - a bit of a contrast to what he received, being banged away for decades.
Care to share with us why he was "banged away for decades"?

Did you know, that the US State Dept. in 2003 removed him temporarily from their list of global terrorists? The very same list that Usama bin Laden's name sits upon. If he remains living that long, he's due to go back on the list in 2013.

frenchperson said:
Botha didn't have the courage to offer anything to peace and reconciliation either, the bitter and twisted racist chappy.
Spent quite a while 'fighting for peace' in Angola and elsewhere... Well, sort of.

As a wee aside, I met them both. Not at the same time. Met PW on the parade ground, me parading, him reviewing. And a few years later found myself flying Nelson around various southern parts. Ho hum.
 
#7
F-ing Bores, the Sh1t the UK took for their Boring policy.
john
Now if New Amsterdam had kept it's name and political system the world would be a different place today.
 
#8
Of course, RSA is a much nicer place now the blacks are in charge; world-leaders in car-jacking, murder, AIDS etc.
Racial steorotypes exist because they have some basis in fact.
Black Africans can't run a country.
Italians can't win wars.
English teams always lose penality shoot-outs in Euro/World Cups.
Scottish teams never do well enough to have to worry about penalities.
 
#9
Is F.W. DeClerk still alive? he was a racist along with the others wasnt he?
 
#10
RIH.

Theres absolutely no moral comparison between Mandela and the likes of Botha, apartheid was a crime against humanity.

All those on here suffering from Lost Empire Syndrome..get over it.
 
#11
He was a liberal peacekeeper!
 
#13
Apartheid - an early attempt at multiculturalism.

FW de Clerk deserves lots of respect for his pragmatism. He realised that the end of the Cold War meant that the West no longer needed a pro western South Africa keeping the oil route around the Cape open. He guided South Africa to a peaceful transition to majority rule. A lesser man would have tried to fight.
 
#14
RIH

Now back to organizing my sock drawer.
 
#15
"Did you know, that the US State Dept. in 2003 removed him temporarily from their list of global terrorists? The very same list that Usama bin Laden's name sits upon. If he remains living that long, he's due to go back on the list in 2013. "

That's the same list they have Cat Stevens on isn't it? I think they set the bar quite low for admission there. It's basically anyone they don't send christmas cards to. Chances are Martin McGuiness is on it too.
 
#16
meeware said:
"That's the same list they have Cat Stevens on isn't it?...Chances are Martin McGuiness is on it too.
The much-maligned P W Botha and Nelson "suspect shirt" Mandela - different sides of the same coin...?

BTW - Martin McGuiness ("Norn Iron" Secretary of State for Education) is a terrorist and a convicted killer and Cat Steven's music has been pony for ages - why shouldn't they be on a "barred" list?
 
#17
black africans have either fought bloody wars to get independence or been given there countries as the colonisers left as quickly as they could :(
Few have much of a history of an educated admin/merchant class The evil empire (sic :D ) perferred to import asians for that role.
The old bloke who did look like being half decent got offed by the CIA :(
so not like they ever been given much of a chance.
apratheid was a vicious and stupid policy and botha and his cronys are lucky there not doing a boat people :eek:
 
#18
Now that Apartheid is dead and buried, everyone mixes, everyone's friends and it's all cosy is it?

B0ll0x. They don't mix any more now than then and it's got nothing to do with history. They just never did and are very unlikely to start doing so now just to keep the western liberals happy. It's about as likely as me getting warm and cosy with a Leicester Pakistani family. Or a French man for that matter!

Whatever the faults with the system and there were many, it was just a system. It didn't even have a name until some clown of a journalist, whose name escapes me, coined the phrase Apartheid. Most of the population were relatively happy with the status quo. Most of the country was safe and stable. It was a relatively small minority who fought the system and who had outrages performed upon them, but this being Britain and the majority of our press and the BBC being left leaning liberal, we came to believe what we were told and read. In much the same way that anyone with no experience of Northern Ireland in the 70s & 80s would imagine that the whole of the province was a derelict war zone, based on the images they'd seen of the Divis and the Falls. That is not to say that outrages (from both SWAPO and ANC) didn't occur or that it was wrong to report the things that were reported, but it doesn't provide a balanced view or put any of the events into perspective against the bigger backdrop.

There have been some very impassioned words already on this thread, written, I suspect, from a position of perceived knowledge. I would urge anyone who thinks they know about South Africa to do more reading from both sides of the divide, visit the place and talk to people from all walks of life and develop a well informed, balanced view before pontificating on the subject.

I spent a good part of my youth growing up in the area. It is the most fantastic part of the world and if you ever have the opportunity to visit, do so, you will never regret it. But do not malign South Africa on the basis of what was written by a press with an agenda, in a different age that had different values. It is un-edifying. If ever there were a case to answer for crimes against humanity and racially motivated crime, I suggest you look not at an historical South Africa but her latter day neighbour.
 
#19
I felt and was safer walking the streets towns in the Cape in 1959/60 than London now. Went back to that fantastic place in the '90's and enjoyed it but crime was already exponentially worse by then and talking to friends there, it's pretty dire now.
 
#20
Interesting four page lead story in the Extra section of today's Independent and in the Editor's Choice of the online edition. It turns out it was Botha, not de Klerk, who recognised the need to reach out to Mandela for a peace deal.

It is a persuasive account of the key role played by Botha, with de Klerk offering far more continuity than generally recognised - although the article recognises that neither probably had in mind what happened in 1994. Apparently neither Botha nor Mandela had that much respect for de Klerk, who both saw as weak.

While Botha seems to have shown a great deal of political courage, he does seem to have done the right thing for the wrong reasons. However, when you look at South Africa and some other examples of African majority rule you have to wonder if they are wrong but for the right reasons...
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top