Outrage? take a look at the Guardian....

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Schaden, Aug 7, 2009.

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  1. Schaden

    Schaden LE Book Reviewer

  2. I know this is going to sound incredibly harsh but this isn't money to which he was entitled - the MOD makes it clear that:

    "As this over-issue was made to you from public funds, and you were advised almost immediately that this was money paid in error to which you are not entitled, I am obliged to seek recovery.""

    It was an error, it isn't his money, and the MOD is asking for it back. I am really sorry he is injured, and I hope that he is well looked after, but fundamentally he is trying to hold onto money which isn't his, which isn't linked to his claim and which he has no entitlement to.

    I appreciate MOD screwed up, and that isn't good enough, but someone else was probably due that £48K payment and now doesnt have it thanks to this chaps actions.
  3. Sixty

    Sixty LE Moderator Book Reviewer
    1. ARRSE Cyclists and Triathletes

    I'd agree with Jim, to be honest. I hope Pte Clowes has a fantastic rehabilitation but this wasn't his money to use. You don't clear your mortgage off in an afternoon so it was premeditated and he should pay it back, possibly with the sum slightly reduced due to the MoD error in the first place.
  4. I agree and hope he recovers soon.

    If he hasn't had his compensation for his injuries then surely the easiest way, since he has already paid off his mortgage, would be for MoD to take the amount from the said sum that is due him. If he has been paid then pay up the money he wasn't supposed to have.
  5. I have a question. Has the fcukwit(s) who overpayed him been disciplined?
    I suspect it's just 'one of those things' eh?

    Strikes me that this is yet another government department cock-up but let's concentrate on the naughty man who won't give the money back.

    I think he missed a trick though, he should have flipped his main residence... Oh, sorry, government ministers only, silly me.
  6. when crapita over paid me by several hundred quid they just cut my pay the following month, without so much as an apology, so certainly don't expect anyone to get disiciplined.

  7. Well is not as if this soldier as is not paying the money back ,He is offering to pay it back at the rate of £120 a month over 23 years.
    A spokeswoman for the Mod said the payment was "an administrative error so its their fault not this soldiers fault .
    For The Service Personnel and Veterans Agency to refuse his terms this week and cancel his £14,300 medical discharge award and to cut his pension from £920 to £620 a month. And also to take £10,000 of his £13,000 savings. This is totally disgraceful and the TSPAVA should be more understanding towards this injured soldier .
  8. Schaden

    Schaden LE Book Reviewer

    I have no issue about the guy paying it back - he should - but it wasn't his error and the heavy handed confiscation and "Do not talk to the media" means somone needs to have their knuckles rapped rather harshly.
  9. "Well is not as if this soldier as is not paying the money back ,He is offering to pay it back at the rate of £120 a month over 23 years."

    In 23 years time, the 48K will be worth a lot less than this.

    The bottom line is really simple - he was given money to which he was not entitled. Rather than clarify this and make sure it was his, which is what I'd do if a random sum of £48k turned up in my bank account, he chose to spend it, despite being warned that it was not his to spend. He owes the MOD £48K that he chose to spend, rather than make one simple phone call to say "Boss, why is there £48K in my bank account and can I spend it".

    He chose to spend the money, he has to accept the consequences of his actions.

    Quick edit to add - I have more than a sneaking suspicion that this has been a long running affair. I've been overpaid in the past, and it doesnt go from 0-100MPH in terms of threats and "don't talk to the media" just like that. There iis usually a fairly tortuous process involved, and I would suspect it went something like

    Overpayment Made - MOD asks nicely for money back
    Chap refuses - believing money to be his
    MOD starts to get a bit more strident saying "give money back"
    Chap refuses, tries to negotiate
    MOD says No - you owe us X and we're recovering it at source
    Chap threatens to go to media - MOD says "not allowed under various regulations etc"
    Chap ends up in Guardian paper singing story of how nasty MOD is trying to shaft him.
  10. Tankie2ndrtr

    Tankie2ndrtr Old-Salt Reviewer

    To Jim;

    "but someone else was probably due that £48K payment and now doesnt have it thanks to this chaps actions".

    Are you serious ?, you think that the army coughed up 48k to the wrong person and that its now skint and cant pay another injured soldier ???? The Army is a big company, they can afford it!

    however agreed so called "Clerical errors" shouldnt happen in the first place but if some useless civvy or AGC C**T overpays a soldier by X amount in my eyes thats his now ! or as "PE4rocks" says the muppet responsible should be held accountable. I bet there would be fewer "clerical/JPA Errors".

    Maybe im not as clued up about this exact case but it wasnt a "random sum of 48k" like Jim said but deposited after an application for more money as the injury worsened.

    113k for his injury is a joke, I know legally the 48k wasnt his, but im with him on this.
    Good Luck
  11. Good for him, the money is his by right of the MoD being fcuking useless, not paying him enough in the first place (113K!?!WHF!) and yet AGAIN picking a PR battle that not only will they lose but will enable the next Govt to abolish the MoD and start over as a crowd pleaser. You will be reapplying for your job in a year Jim30 whever or not that is justified or not. I hope you get it as you seem to be a real asset to the UKAF but most of your collegues can and will be junked.

    All you t*ssers who say 'but but but he should have asked if he could spend it because I do when I am overpaid' have probably not sustained life threatening injuries while shelf stacking or polishing a chair with your over weight arrse.

    Getting The Guardian involved is a smart move on his part as they have their outrage bus off and away on this tied into the issue of insufficient compensation for all wounded. I have a lot of problems with the Guardian but when they focus on something like this that offends common decency they always get a result.

    He will keep the money, he will get an apology from the MoD, he will also be offered some very good jobs on the back of this, I wish him well and thank him for his service to the British people.
  12. It was an error on the MoDs behalf, and the soldier now does indeed owe themthe money back.

    He spent the money. As has been noted above, it wouldn't have been a quick thing to do, did he expect teh £50,000? Wounded or not, I have little sympathy for him. EVERY soldier should know by now, if an extra bit of cash floats in to your account that you can't recognise the reason for, don't spend it.

    And £50k is a pretty big lump.

    Can't help thinking he has tried to pull a fast one here.

    There must be some solution to this that allows him to pay the money back AND receive a healthy pension.

    Or, we could just go to the desk monkey that paid him too much, and get the £50,000 from them.
  13. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    personally i think he showed great responsibility in paying off his mortgage so quickly and I might add, that he's clearly done the right thing.

    Now the paper work that came with the award, depending on what it said, may, or may not, make it recoverable to the MOD. I personally hope that it isn't. Firms learn best by making expensive mistakes and in effect this is similar to American punitive damages (as in MacDonalds too hot coffee, $50 for a new blouse, $3m for not having a coffee temperature standard or something like it).

    I expect that this soldier is well in his rights to go to court and insist on a court settlement taking into account his income and expenditure. The court - I believe - cannot make him take out new debt (e.g. another mortgage) and the MOD is being unreasonable in its requirement for its money back. And whilst they might not grant pnly 120 GBP a month, it probably won't be far off. It makes me smile.

    UK debt info, what you can do and they can't is here: http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/debt_advice.php#6

    No need to run to the press though..

    I'm not an expert on MOD payments and so on but the over-award should have nothing to do with the actual correct award and his monthly income. The three things are unrelated and should be treated as such.
  14. Mr Happy

    Mr Happy LE Moderator

    I would love to see, how, if, payments into your account made legally are dealt with differently for Soldiers, than, say, the rest of the world. The legal world of gifts, tax ability, is quite interesting.

    I know there is a right to ask for repayment and a case of reasonability. But if ever anyone here gets a 50K lump. Pay off any debt you have immediately but expect some conseuquences like this.
  15. He's offered to pay the money back in installments,what's the problem?
    There are plenty of slum dwelling scum in the country who are allowed to pay their fines at the minimum weekly rate,so why not this lad?
    Good on him.