Out with the old and in with the new.........

Discussion in 'ACF' started by walting_matilda, Jun 18, 2011.

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  1. Lads,

    There is a school in SW England that has an ACF attached. I hear that the new Headmaster is Ex RM and is keen on having a CCF. Can anyone see any problems with that? Discuss
  2. How much of an ACF? Det-size?

    Don't forget a CCF contingent has at least one but often 2 full time members of staff who take a Sgts wage or better. At current state of play that is quite a financial burden compared to an ACF detachment which runs on unpaid staff members on a weekly basis (only paid at weekends).

    Often new people want to convert things to their way of play, no surprise in ex-bootie Head wanting to get a marine section going. Give him time he'll realise it's all just kids learning mil-skills and shooting gats and it doesn't really matter what badge they wear it's all really the same thing.
  3. Mate,

    I think you have been misinformed. CCFs normally only have one permanent member of staff who is normally ex reg just topping up his pension. Teaching staff do it for free as well (bar PTDs etc) so no really extra cost.
  4. Is this something which the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus' should be concerned or upset about?
  5. I know they have one permanent member - and this IS often two, depending really on whether it is a voluntary (typically smaller) or compulsory (typically larger) CCF, since a 1000+ pupil school with a CCF that is compulsory for the first 2 years will have about 500 cadets and this is the job of 2 people. Bare in mind that is the equivalent of an ACF county who employ usually at least 3 full timers (AO, CEO, QM). This will be one SSI (As you say, ex-reg) and one something-else, often ex-reg / ex-TA or ex-instructor or ex-something! But either way, that person/s require paying full time, which is probably the biting point from an affordability point of view. (Though I am not sure whether the second person is the financial responsibility of the MoD or of the school).

    As for 'topping up their pension', this is not really the case. Images of SSIs being 70 years of age and rotting away quietly in the school's CCF cupboard with a couple of quid to spend in the pub, is not really a current one, many SSIs are still of a perfectly good working age and thus, in order to pay their living costs plus those often of their kids etc; they still need paying a pretty normal salary. The job to them is as much of a commitment in finance and in time as any other job they might find themselves in between the service and being 65.

    Cadet Forces money is at a premium at the moment and I doubt the RFCA would get all excited at the prospect of having to recruit a full time member of staff just so the new head teacher could see some of his kids wearing an RM capbadge.
  6. Hmmmm Surely getting more kids into cadets is a good thing. Would it not be better if this happened?
  7. Definitely.

    Sorry I thought you said "turn it from an ACF into a CCF" not "get more kids into it".
  8. I believe if you did this, it would result in more cadets. Each CCF is massive compared to many detachment.
  9. I think you have got this the wrong way round matey! Do you honestly think that simply changing it from ACF to CCF is what it takes to 10-fold your numbers?

    If you take a Coy of soldiers and rename them as a Battalion, there aren't any more soldiers, you've just given them a name that reflects a greater amount of soldiers!

    Yes, CCF Contingents are bigger than ACF Dets. But renaming it 'School CCF' as opposed to 'School ACF' does not attract more cadets. If they don't want to wear a uniform and play in the mud at the weekend, they will not join regardless of whether it is called an ACF or a CCF!

    You have it all the wrong way round. More cadets might make it worthy of a contingent, but making it a contingent does not just assume more cadets!

    If the new head introduced 'Conscription' - IE where the schoolkids are required to join CCF (usually just applies to first 1 or 2 years), that may warrant a transition to a CCF contingent, based on the influx of cadets joining. But it goes in the order of:

    ACF Detachment - ACF Detachment Grows too big for Tuesday night admin and County control - CCF Contingent

    Better recruitment and a larger audience leads to more cadets; simply changing the administrative structure of the unit is not enough to go from 30-40 cadets to 300-400 cadets. If the head decides to improve recruitment, and the audience, through conscription or other incentives, then you may find that the detachment does grow to a size where remaining an ACF detachment is inappropriate, in this scenario, I am sure that the County HQ will offer support in turning the unit from ACF to CCF.
  10. I suspect the Head may have ideas in that direction, but many a CCF has foundered through lack of interest of school staff.

    If it is a school ACF it will have the backing of the local County /Battalion /Sector ACF, so will be insulated against such staff shortage. Many CCF's do not run with Naval, Army and Air Force Sections,and many exist solely with Army Sections.

    There are advantages to CCF's, many indeedabout being able to timetable things to a school year and other school activities, but I cannot see an advantage, for example, in converting a school ACF into a CCF Cointingent.

    To add even one of the aother sections to have, say, Army+ Naval Sections will increase the school staffinf reuirement.

    Anmd it is this school-based staffing which is the primarycause for the demise of those CCF's which have gone, or the demise of Sections to reduce the availability of three service sections.
  11. As you say, some CCFs are voluntary, others compulsory and some in between. There are lots of pros and cons of all three methods.

    Suppose your right in some way. However, the head could say that rather than have ACF on a Tuesday night he would like to have it on a Wednesday after school (conductive with school timetables), and have a Army, Navy, RAF, RM sections. This in turn could boost recruitment due to interest in the different sections and what they have to offer. Also having a minimum commitment of one year would guarantee numbers were maintained.

    I’m not saying that it would turn a medium size detachment into a regiment sized contingent overnight but the HM would have more control over how the cadet force is run within and the benefits that CCFs have.
  12. True, is this a boarding school or a day school?

    If it's a day school, then the kids should have the opportunity to attend any of the local cadet groups anyway. IME, most major towns have at least an ACF and an ATC, many also have SCC.

    As such, the school offering them would only be an excuse for the kids to be lazy and not visit the public cadet forces in their local area, as the 100,000+ kids currently in the cadet forces do and have done for a very long time.

    Yes, you are correct that if the school had it's own in-house cadet force that ran on Wednesday afternoons, it could probably attract more kids than just the town's existing cadet units. HOWEVER, if that in itself were a good enough reason for the RFCA to invest money in it, EVERY school in the country would have a CCF!!! As it is, the MoD realise that putting one unit in each town is actually sufficient, and you do not need to put one in each school to be successful.

    True, but what value is that? What makes you think the headmaster telling the cadet force how to run is better than a County HQ, with it's knowledge of running cadet activities, telling the cadet force how to run???

    Honestly, what I make of this is that you have some ex-bootie marine HM who wants to get his new kids doing 'marine' things at the weekend because in his world, every kid would try and join the marines. That's not an uncommon principle, often new AIs joining command positions will try to rebadge units to suit their former capbadge or whatever. I know of a unit which put in a proposal to become RMP badged on the grounds that all the AIs were civplod. Once upon a time, there may have been money to support this kind of thing. But now? There is not money in the pot to warrant making administrative changes to cadet units for nothing more than an aesthetic switch.

    My gut feeling is that, as I said, like 100,000+ other teenagers around the country, yours will have to make do with visiting the local cadet unit. That is, after all, what they are there for. CCF Contingents exist for schools which have such a large number of cadets that running from an ACF County would be inefficient due to the large number of cadets they were dealing with. IF your HM wants to generate a system whereby more individuals are recruited into your existing cadet forces systems (involving local dets / sqns) to a point where the school has 300+ kids in the local cadet units, I am sure that then, the RFCA would consider an application for you to open a school CCF. As it is, I doubt that the RFCA will want to spend money on opening up a CCF, just so that a few extra kids who are too bone idle to walk to their local ACF/ATC units can join in, and your HM can see his capbadge on the heads of his new pupils. There is simply not that kind of funding currently in place.
  13. My son attended a boarding school in the UK that seemed to have a very active CCF unit. I know the headmaster is quite interested in the CCF program and based on school photos assisted with the training activities in uniform. I think he was an officer of the Marines and IIRC he earned a MC in the Falklands (Op Corporate??)

    Being Septic, my son did not join CCF program and did real tennis and sailing as his sports. I do know that the schools shooting and clay pigeon teams included a number of the CCF cadets but I am not sure of the numbers.
  14. I doubt you'll get a new CCF. You could get a 'closed' ACF det though. Basically a CCF but run on ACF lines.

    PM if you like and I'll tell you the locs of current 'closed' ACF dets in the SW for info.

    Re SSIs (School Staff Instructors) some are indeed old and wee smelling, some are quite young. Some aren't even ex-forces, there is at least one who has drifted in from the ACF. They are paid the same as a CFAV, in that they are paid a set amount of MTDs per year. The rest of the their wedge is made up by the school.

    Most only work two days a week for the CCF, the remainder is made up of fire duties, H&S, Tpt management, Marshalling, estate maintainence and/or a plethora of other nitty gritty tasks that have been added on to the role to allow pay and make the job attractive. Again at least one SSI slot doubled as teh school DofE bloke and outward bounds teacher/instructor/organiser.

    The school may also pay for some of the CCF activities.

    Many CCFs are voluntary at teh moment, few are mandatory. I am not aware of any that top 200 odd kids, and the CCF and ACF sylabi are different. The ACF is actually a better deal.

    What this school could do, because the CCF door is highly likely to be shut to them, is open an ACF, ATC and a SCC (with or without Marine Det) and parade them at the same time. Even during school hours.

    Or they could find a nearby CCF and 'twin'. This is a bit of a nightmare, as the other school would control it, and have the SSI but then the other school provides cadets. The BIG drama is the CCF school has to give up cadet places for the 'twin' school. The CCF doesn't get bigger.

    Warn this guy off though. He isn't going to get his own militia. If he hasn't had contact with Cadets before he could be under the delusion he is going ot get his own mini-commando unit. Niether CCF nor ACF operate that way. As one loony Headmaster found out when he couldn't get his own capbadged CCF...

    Again I may be able to get in touch with the Marine Cadet guy based down in the SW too. Drop us a line with where this school is etc.
  15. How would this be any cheaper? You are talking about three/four different organisations (who don’t speak to each other at the best of times from experience) setting up in one central location. Chaos would rain supreme.