Out with the old and in with the new.........

#1
Lads,

There is a school in SW England that has an ACF attached. I hear that the new Headmaster is Ex RM and is keen on having a CCF. Can anyone see any problems with that? Discuss
 
#2
How much of an ACF? Det-size?

Don't forget a CCF contingent has at least one but often 2 full time members of staff who take a Sgts wage or better. At current state of play that is quite a financial burden compared to an ACF detachment which runs on unpaid staff members on a weekly basis (only paid at weekends).

Often new people want to convert things to their way of play, no surprise in ex-bootie Head wanting to get a marine section going. Give him time he'll realise it's all just kids learning mil-skills and shooting gats and it doesn't really matter what badge they wear it's all really the same thing.
 
#3
Mate,

I think you have been misinformed. CCFs normally only have one permanent member of staff who is normally ex reg just topping up his pension. Teaching staff do it for free as well (bar PTDs etc) so no really extra cost.
 
#5
Mate,

I think you have been misinformed. CCFs normally only have one permanent member of staff who is normally ex reg just topping up his pension. Teaching staff do it for free as well (bar PTDs etc) so no really extra cost.
I know they have one permanent member - and this IS often two, depending really on whether it is a voluntary (typically smaller) or compulsory (typically larger) CCF, since a 1000+ pupil school with a CCF that is compulsory for the first 2 years will have about 500 cadets and this is the job of 2 people. Bare in mind that is the equivalent of an ACF county who employ usually at least 3 full timers (AO, CEO, QM). This will be one SSI (As you say, ex-reg) and one something-else, often ex-reg / ex-TA or ex-instructor or ex-something! But either way, that person/s require paying full time, which is probably the biting point from an affordability point of view. (Though I am not sure whether the second person is the financial responsibility of the MoD or of the school).

As for 'topping up their pension', this is not really the case. Images of SSIs being 70 years of age and rotting away quietly in the school's CCF cupboard with a couple of quid to spend in the pub, is not really a current one, many SSIs are still of a perfectly good working age and thus, in order to pay their living costs plus those often of their kids etc; they still need paying a pretty normal salary. The job to them is as much of a commitment in finance and in time as any other job they might find themselves in between the service and being 65.

Cadet Forces money is at a premium at the moment and I doubt the RFCA would get all excited at the prospect of having to recruit a full time member of staff just so the new head teacher could see some of his kids wearing an RM capbadge.
 
#6
Hmmmm Surely getting more kids into cadets is a good thing. Would it not be better if this happened?
 
#9
I think you have got this the wrong way round matey! Do you honestly think that simply changing it from ACF to CCF is what it takes to 10-fold your numbers?

If you take a Coy of soldiers and rename them as a Battalion, there aren't any more soldiers, you've just given them a name that reflects a greater amount of soldiers!

Yes, CCF Contingents are bigger than ACF Dets. But renaming it 'School CCF' as opposed to 'School ACF' does not attract more cadets. If they don't want to wear a uniform and play in the mud at the weekend, they will not join regardless of whether it is called an ACF or a CCF!

You have it all the wrong way round. More cadets might make it worthy of a contingent, but making it a contingent does not just assume more cadets!

If the new head introduced 'Conscription' - IE where the schoolkids are required to join CCF (usually just applies to first 1 or 2 years), that may warrant a transition to a CCF contingent, based on the influx of cadets joining. But it goes in the order of:

ACF Detachment - ACF Detachment Grows too big for Tuesday night admin and County control - CCF Contingent

Better recruitment and a larger audience leads to more cadets; simply changing the administrative structure of the unit is not enough to go from 30-40 cadets to 300-400 cadets. If the head decides to improve recruitment, and the audience, through conscription or other incentives, then you may find that the detachment does grow to a size where remaining an ACF detachment is inappropriate, in this scenario, I am sure that the County HQ will offer support in turning the unit from ACF to CCF.
 
#10
I suspect the Head may have ideas in that direction, but many a CCF has foundered through lack of interest of school staff.

If it is a school ACF it will have the backing of the local County /Battalion /Sector ACF, so will be insulated against such staff shortage. Many CCF's do not run with Naval, Army and Air Force Sections,and many exist solely with Army Sections.

There are advantages to CCF's, many indeedabout being able to timetable things to a school year and other school activities, but I cannot see an advantage, for example, in converting a school ACF into a CCF Cointingent.

To add even one of the aother sections to have, say, Army+ Naval Sections will increase the school staffinf reuirement.

Anmd it is this school-based staffing which is the primarycause for the demise of those CCF's which have gone, or the demise of Sections to reduce the availability of three service sections.
 
#11
I think you have got this the wrong way round matey! Do you honestly think that simply changing it from ACF to CCF is what it takes to 10-fold your numbers?

If you take a Coy of soldiers and rename them as a Battalion, there aren't any more soldiers, you've just given them a name that reflects a greater amount of soldiers!

Yes, CCF Contingents are bigger than ACF Dets. But renaming it 'School CCF' as opposed to 'School ACF' does not attract more cadets. If they don't want to wear a uniform and play in the mud at the weekend, they will not join regardless of whether it is called an ACF or a CCF!

You have it all the wrong way round. More cadets might make it worthy of a contingent, but making it a contingent does not just assume more cadets!

If the new head introduced 'Conscription' - IE where the schoolkids are required to join CCF (usually just applies to first 1 or 2 years), that may warrant a transition to a CCF contingent, based on the influx of cadets joining. But it goes in the order of:

ACF Detachment - ACF Detachment Grows too big for Tuesday night admin and County control - CCF Contingent

Better recruitment and a larger audience leads to more cadets; simply changing the administrative structure of the unit is not enough to go from 30-40 cadets to 300-400 cadets. If the head decides to improve recruitment, and the audience, through conscription or other incentives, then you may find that the detachment does grow to a size where remaining an ACF detachment is inappropriate, in this scenario, I am sure that the County HQ will offer support in turning the unit from ACF to CCF.
As you say, some CCFs are voluntary, others compulsory and some in between. There are lots of pros and cons of all three methods.

Suppose your right in some way. However, the head could say that rather than have ACF on a Tuesday night he would like to have it on a Wednesday after school (conductive with school timetables), and have a Army, Navy, RAF, RM sections. This in turn could boost recruitment due to interest in the different sections and what they have to offer. Also having a minimum commitment of one year would guarantee numbers were maintained.

I’m not saying that it would turn a medium size detachment into a regiment sized contingent overnight but the HM would have more control over how the cadet force is run within and the benefits that CCFs have.
 
#12
Suppose your right in some way. However, the head could say that rather than have ACF on a Tuesday night he would like to have it on a Wednesday after school (conductive with school timetables), and have a Army, Navy, RAF, RM sections. This in turn could boost recruitment due to interest in the different sections and what they have to offer. Also having a minimum commitment of one year would guarantee numbers were maintained.
True, is this a boarding school or a day school?

If it's a day school, then the kids should have the opportunity to attend any of the local cadet groups anyway. IME, most major towns have at least an ACF and an ATC, many also have SCC.

As such, the school offering them would only be an excuse for the kids to be lazy and not visit the public cadet forces in their local area, as the 100,000+ kids currently in the cadet forces do and have done for a very long time.

Yes, you are correct that if the school had it's own in-house cadet force that ran on Wednesday afternoons, it could probably attract more kids than just the town's existing cadet units. HOWEVER, if that in itself were a good enough reason for the RFCA to invest money in it, EVERY school in the country would have a CCF!!! As it is, the MoD realise that putting one unit in each town is actually sufficient, and you do not need to put one in each school to be successful.

I’m not saying that it would turn a medium size detachment into a regiment sized contingent overnight but the HM would have more control over how the cadet force is run within and the benefits that CCFs have.
True, but what value is that? What makes you think the headmaster telling the cadet force how to run is better than a County HQ, with it's knowledge of running cadet activities, telling the cadet force how to run???


Honestly, what I make of this is that you have some ex-bootie marine HM who wants to get his new kids doing 'marine' things at the weekend because in his world, every kid would try and join the marines. That's not an uncommon principle, often new AIs joining command positions will try to rebadge units to suit their former capbadge or whatever. I know of a unit which put in a proposal to become RMP badged on the grounds that all the AIs were civplod. Once upon a time, there may have been money to support this kind of thing. But now? There is not money in the pot to warrant making administrative changes to cadet units for nothing more than an aesthetic switch.

My gut feeling is that, as I said, like 100,000+ other teenagers around the country, yours will have to make do with visiting the local cadet unit. That is, after all, what they are there for. CCF Contingents exist for schools which have such a large number of cadets that running from an ACF County would be inefficient due to the large number of cadets they were dealing with. IF your HM wants to generate a system whereby more individuals are recruited into your existing cadet forces systems (involving local dets / sqns) to a point where the school has 300+ kids in the local cadet units, I am sure that then, the RFCA would consider an application for you to open a school CCF. As it is, I doubt that the RFCA will want to spend money on opening up a CCF, just so that a few extra kids who are too bone idle to walk to their local ACF/ATC units can join in, and your HM can see his capbadge on the heads of his new pupils. There is simply not that kind of funding currently in place.
 
#13
My son attended a boarding school in the UK that seemed to have a very active CCF unit. I know the headmaster is quite interested in the CCF program and based on school photos assisted with the training activities in uniform. I think he was an officer of the Marines and IIRC he earned a MC in the Falklands (Op Corporate??)

Being Septic, my son did not join CCF program and did real tennis and sailing as his sports. I do know that the schools shooting and clay pigeon teams included a number of the CCF cadets but I am not sure of the numbers.
 
#14
I doubt you'll get a new CCF. You could get a 'closed' ACF det though. Basically a CCF but run on ACF lines.

PM if you like and I'll tell you the locs of current 'closed' ACF dets in the SW for info.

Re SSIs (School Staff Instructors) some are indeed old and wee smelling, some are quite young. Some aren't even ex-forces, there is at least one who has drifted in from the ACF. They are paid the same as a CFAV, in that they are paid a set amount of MTDs per year. The rest of the their wedge is made up by the school.

Most only work two days a week for the CCF, the remainder is made up of fire duties, H&S, Tpt management, Marshalling, estate maintainence and/or a plethora of other nitty gritty tasks that have been added on to the role to allow pay and make the job attractive. Again at least one SSI slot doubled as teh school DofE bloke and outward bounds teacher/instructor/organiser.

The school may also pay for some of the CCF activities.

Many CCFs are voluntary at teh moment, few are mandatory. I am not aware of any that top 200 odd kids, and the CCF and ACF sylabi are different. The ACF is actually a better deal.

What this school could do, because the CCF door is highly likely to be shut to them, is open an ACF, ATC and a SCC (with or without Marine Det) and parade them at the same time. Even during school hours.

Or they could find a nearby CCF and 'twin'. This is a bit of a nightmare, as the other school would control it, and have the SSI but then the other school provides cadets. The BIG drama is the CCF school has to give up cadet places for the 'twin' school. The CCF doesn't get bigger.

Warn this guy off though. He isn't going to get his own militia. If he hasn't had contact with Cadets before he could be under the delusion he is going ot get his own mini-commando unit. Niether CCF nor ACF operate that way. As one loony Headmaster found out when he couldn't get his own capbadged CCF...

Again I may be able to get in touch with the Marine Cadet guy based down in the SW too. Drop us a line with where this school is etc.
 
#15
I doubt you'll get a new CCF. You could get a 'closed' ACF det though. Basically a CCF but run on ACF lines.

PM if you like and I'll tell you the locs of current 'closed' ACF dets in the SW for info.

Re SSIs (School Staff Instructors) some are indeed old and wee smelling, some are quite young. Some aren't even ex-forces, there is at least one who has drifted in from the ACF. They are paid the same as a CFAV, in that they are paid a set amount of MTDs per year. The rest of the their wedge is made up by the school.

Most only work two days a week for the CCF, the remainder is made up of fire duties, H&S, Tpt management, Marshalling, estate maintainence and/or a plethora of other nitty gritty tasks that have been added on to the role to allow pay and make the job attractive. Again at least one SSI slot doubled as teh school DofE bloke and outward bounds teacher/instructor/organiser.

The school may also pay for some of the CCF activities.

Many CCFs are voluntary at teh moment, few are mandatory. I am not aware of any that top 200 odd kids, and the CCF and ACF sylabi are different. The ACF is actually a better deal.

What this school could do, because the CCF door is highly likely to be shut to them, is open an ACF, ATC and a SCC (with or without Marine Det) and parade them at the same time. Even during school hours.
Or they could find a nearby CCF and 'twin'. This is a bit of a nightmare, as the other school would control it, and have the SSI but then the other school provides cadets. The BIG drama is the CCF school has to give up cadet places for the 'twin' school. The CCF doesn't get bigger.

Warn this guy off though. He isn't going to get his own militia. If he hasn't had contact with Cadets before he could be under the delusion he is going ot get his own mini-commando unit. Niether CCF nor ACF operate that way. As one loony Headmaster found out when he couldn't get his own capbadged CCF...

Again I may be able to get in touch with the Marine Cadet guy based down in the SW too. Drop us a line with where this school is etc.
How would this be any cheaper? You are talking about three/four different organisations (who don’t speak to each other at the best of times from experience) setting up in one central location. Chaos would rain supreme.
 
#16
How would this be any cheaper? You are talking about three/four different organisations (who don’t speak to each other at the best of times from experience) setting up in one central location. Chaos would rain supreme.
Because, you are seemingly unaware of the admin structure!

An ACF detachent, ATC Sqn, etc; are just sub-units of their County / Wing. The units just play with the kids on Tuesdays and Thursdays and a few weekends, but are not responsible for anything beyond unit-level admin. Stores, pay, MT, training safety, etc are all responsibilities of the County, who employ about 3 full time staff and about another 3 part timers, to look after 25+ units of cadets. Within that, there will be 3/4 companies, who will each have 2/3/4 part-time staff who are responsible for making those duties a bit easier on County, essentially.

So if you set up 3 independent ATC/ACF/SCC units, these would be simply attended by the cadets. They would likely, at least initially, source instructors from other units in the County, since the teachers would not yet be trained & qualified, but then teachers could be merged in. They would be entitled to use the facilities already in place for their higher-up units (County / Wing etc) and have all their admin, as listed above, sorted by the qualified and experienced staff already employed at those levels. The whole operation is run by existing bodies. If the school has it's own building, they are really only adding more bods to each of their rosters.

Setting up a CCF, is a whole different ball game however. A CCF Contingent is the equivalent of a County / Wing etc. It does all it's own admin, pay, stores, MT etc (although they will have a CAA responsible for a few CCFs who assists with getting all this done). So setting a new one up involves a far greater load of hassle and work to do. Setting up a CCF is not just a case of recruiting an ex-regular soldier to be in charge, getting a few teachers trained at Frimley, issuing a load of CS95 and L98s, and putting a flag outside!

Like I said, if your town is already serviced by public ATC, ACF and (sometimes) SCC units; the RFCAs likely response will be "why can't your kids attend those like everybody else has to?" - which, is perfectly fair enough. You will probably only find grounds to open a CCF up if you're literally overflowing the local units with your own kids.

As chocolate frog said, your guy may well just be under the impression he's going to get a gucci little commando militia on his doorstep who he can stand in front of. It's not like that and he will not find that with either the ACF/ATC/SCC or CCF. They are structured units that function as cadet units under the guidelines laid down from above.

But then again, don't take my word for it. Ring up the RFCA and ask them for guidelines about setting up a CCF in an area which does / doesn't have existing public cadet units, and see what they say. That is of course, the best answer I can give you, since it's them that can grant permission or turn it down. I just find it unlikely in the current tempo. The sole goal of the cadet forces is not just to recruit people (many units are not recruiting as they are full strength) and so the fact you might get 10% more by putting it on school grounds is unlikely to wash. IME, unless you have a significant number of cadets waiting to join a public unit; or you are a boarding school where attending evening clubs is an admin nightmare; there is little that a CCF can offer which they cannot gain in a public unit, and you will struggle to justify the costs to the RFCA.
 
#17
Because, you are seemingly unaware of the admin structure!

An ACF detachent, ATC Sqn, etc; are just sub-units of their County / Wing. The units just play with the kids on Tuesdays and Thursdays and a few weekends, but are not responsible for anything beyond unit-level admin. Stores, pay, MT, training safety, etc are all responsibilities of the County, who employ about 3 full time staff and about another 3 part timers, to look after 25+ units of cadets. Within that, there will be 3/4 companies, who will each have 2/3/4 part-time staff who are responsible for making those duties a bit easier on County, essentially.

So if you set up 3 independent ATC/ACF/SCC units, these would be simply attended by the cadets. They would likely, at least initially, source instructors from other units in the County, since the teachers would not yet be trained & qualified, but then teachers could be merged in. They would be entitled to use the facilities already in place for their higher-up units (County / Wing etc) and have all their admin, as listed above, sorted by the qualified and experienced staff already employed at those levels. The whole operation is run by existing bodies. If the school has it's own building, they are really only adding more bods to each of their rosters.

Setting up a CCF, is a whole different ball game however. A CCF Contingent is the equivalent of a County / Wing etc. It does all it's own admin, pay, stores, MT etc (although they will have a CAA responsible for a few CCFs who assists with getting all this done). So setting a new one up involves a far greater load of hassle and work to do. Setting up a CCF is not just a case of recruiting an ex-regular soldier to be in charge, getting a few teachers trained at Frimley, issuing a load of CS95 and L98s, and putting a flag outside!

Like I said, if your town is already serviced by public ATC, ACF and (sometimes) SCC units; the RFCAs likely response will be "why can't your kids attend those like everybody else has to?" - which, is perfectly fair enough. You will probably only find grounds to open a CCF up if you're literally overflowing the local units with your own kids.

As chocolate frog said, your guy may well just be under the impression he's going to get a gucci little commando militia on his doorstep who he can stand in front of. It's not like that and he will not find that with either the ACF/ATC/SCC or CCF. They are structured units that function as cadet units under the guidelines laid down from above.

But then again, don't take my word for it. Ring up the RFCA and ask them for guidelines about setting up a CCF in an area which does / doesn't have existing public cadet units, and see what they say. That is of course, the best answer I can give you, since it's them that can grant permission or turn it down. I just find it unlikely in the current tempo. The sole goal of the cadet forces is not just to recruit people (many units are not recruiting as they are full strength) and so the fact you might get 10% more by putting it on school grounds is unlikely to wash. IME, unless you have a significant number of cadets waiting to join a public unit; or you are a boarding school where attending evening clubs is an admin nightmare; there is little that a CCF can offer which they cannot gain in a public unit, and you will struggle to justify the costs to the RFCA.
I feel it is simpler than you say as it is all listed in JSP 313.
 
#18
I feel it is simpler than you say as it is all listed in JSP 313.
I doubt the answer as to whether you will be granted permission and funding to do anything is listed in any JSP.

Cadet Forces securing funding and somebody else's work hours to do anything (within reason - IE opening a CCF) is surely a case-by-case basis, so like I said, you're probably best just asking them
 
#19
How would this be any cheaper? You are talking about three/four different organisations (who don’t speak to each other at the best of times from experience) setting up in one central location. Chaos would rain supreme.
Never said cheaper. But they probably aren't going to get a new CCF... And I can't see it being that much more expensive or cheaper than setting up a new CCF at anyrate.

That said, it would be nice to find out why the ATC have such a sad on with the ACF. My experience with SCC is limited.

But with three NEW dets all held at one school, with the Headmaster as 'leader' it should surely work reasonably well. If they start fcuking about, the head just shuts off the accomodation.

Not too sure why at this stage in the game the various Cadet groups aren't 'purple' anyway.
 
#20
I feel it is simpler than you say as it is all listed in JSP 313.
Ha.

You will also find the method of changing capbadges in there too. On paper it is a simple three step plan.

Inform old capbadge that you are going, inform new capbadge you are coming, inform county that you are swapping... care to experiment and find out how easy it really is?
 

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