Our European Friends

Now we just need a thread on if there was WW3, which countries would be allies.

USA/UK etc - V's China/Russia/Iran/North Korea etc...

How many would people would die, who would win, what would happen to the losers - ie would their countries be split up/renamed etc. Would we be bombed back into the stone age.....I sometimes wonder about things like this and think it's only just a matter of time before this is going to happen - maybe even in my lifetime.
Hopefully in about 25 years time when I'm sat in a pool of my own shit in a maximum security care unit for the terminally bewildered. With a big Hd TV to watch it on .
 
DPs - Displaced Persons - often civilian slave labourers who found themselves in the Western Zones after VE Day - plus some PoW, plus Ukrainian-speaking Poles from the Eastern chunk of Poland grabbed by Stalin in 1945.

Former Hiwis rolled the dice. If they were in the British sector, they were in with a good chance of getting 'Cossacked' back to Mother Russia, but it wasn't automatic. Even some SS types managed to avoid it.

Note post edited to correct details:

An estimated over 50,000 Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Slovakians 'police' battalion / KZ guard types, collaberators, Nazi village Mayors etc. joined the Free Polish Forces by the ruse of enlisting into the Free Polish forces from POW camps from post DDay onwards - as long you were convincing and could claim you had been pressganged by the Hun you had a very good chance of swapping flags, with a new Country for home at the end if you survived.

An estimated third of this 50,000 made it to the UK.

No criticism of the Polish Free forces is intended here, the borders between the countries above had been in a flux for decades and it was easy to claim your part was Polish not so long ago, how can you check? When you have Koreans dragooned into the Imperial Japanese Army, then captured and gulaged by the Soviets, then pressed into the Red Army and captured by the Germans then pressed again into service ending up manning coastal defences on DDay. Then being captured by the Yanks* shows just how many nationalities had been pressed into 'service' by the Krauts and could claim it was nothing to do with them. And then add the forced labourers on top, bedlam.

The so called 'Cossacking' was at the specific request of Stalin he wanted ALL former Soviet citizens: RONA, Hiwis, Vlasov's Cossacks etc it didn't really apply to non Soviet citizens.

If you were a wrong un especially low level and not German you were on a fairly clear road, for example just how many actual German Nazi war criminals in the British zone and POW camps were not prosecuted? NB Yanks much worse on this.

* see 'the long way home'

Source



 
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A new estimate of over 50,000 Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Slovakians 'police' battalion / KZ guard types, made it the UK and settled many by the ruse of enlisting into the Free Polish forces from POW camps from post DDay onwards - as long you were convincing (no SS tattoo) and could claim you had been pressganged you had a very good chance of swapping flags, with a blighty billet at the end if you survived.

No criticism of the Polish Free forces intended here, the borders between the countries above had been in a flux for decades and it was easy to claim your part was Polish not so long ago, how can you check? When you have Koreans dragooned into the Imperial Japanese Army, then captured and gulaged by the Soviets, then pressed into the Red Army and captured by the Germans then pressed again into service ending up manning coastal defences on DDay. Then being captured by the Yanks* shows just how many nationalities had been pressed into 'service' by the Krauts and could claim it was nothing to do with them. And then add the forced labourers on top, bedlam.

The so called 'Cossacking' was at the specific request of Stalin he wanted ALL former Soviet citizens: RONA, Hiwis, Vlasov's Cossacks etc it didn't really apply to non Soviet citizens.

If you were a wrong un especially low level and not German you were on a fairly clear road, for example just how many actual German Nazi war criminals in the British zone and POW camps were not prosecuted? NB Yanks much worse on this.

* see 'the long way home'

I had a colleague, his brother too, in my Corps whose father had been a Latvian on the wrong side and somehow ended up in the UK when everything was shaken up at the end. Both the lads did very well and had both done arduous courses, one of them more than one.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
A new estimate of over 50,000 Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Slovakians 'police' battalion / KZ guard types, made it the UK and settled many by the ruse of enlisting into the Free Polish forces from POW camps from post DDay onwards - as long you were convincing (no SS tattoo) and could claim you had been pressganged you had a very good chance of swapping flags, with a blighty billet at the end if you survived.

No criticism of the Polish Free forces intended here, the borders between the countries above had been in a flux for decades and it was easy to claim your part was Polish not so long ago, how can you check? When you have Koreans dragooned into the Imperial Japanese Army, then captured and gulaged by the Soviets, then pressed into the Red Army and captured by the Germans then pressed again into service ending up manning coastal defences on DDay. Then being captured by the Yanks* shows just how many nationalities had been pressed into 'service' by the Krauts and could claim it was nothing to do with them. And then add the forced labourers on top, bedlam.

The so called 'Cossacking' was at the specific request of Stalin he wanted ALL former Soviet citizens: RONA, Hiwis, Vlasov's Cossacks etc it didn't really apply to non Soviet citizens.

If you were a wrong un especially low level and not German you were on a fairly clear road, for example just how many actual German Nazi war criminals in the British zone and POW camps were not prosecuted? NB Yanks much worse on this.

* see 'the long way home'
Any link to this new estimate ?
 
Yes and apologies its 50k estimated in total of which a third came to the UK, the rest; France, Canada, USA, Austrailia etc

As many as 50,000 Nazi collaborators infiltrated Polish forces in the later stages of World War Two, historian Martin Dean, who worked on the government inquiry and for the Metropolitan Police’s War Crimes Unit, says.

About a third of them ended up in the UK.

“They would have had different degrees of involvement with the Nazis,” he says. “But some would be local policemen from places like Belarus.”

It's BBC but looks like some of the remaining sensible people, local reporters, worked on the story

 
I have not seen any mention of the following:

Romanians

Welcome anywhere and take soldiering very seriously, I have never heard a bad word about them, sons of Emperor Trajan

Swedes

I found them to be superbly professional and useful (Kosovo)

Irish

Excellent in UN peace keeping roles, calm, balanced and professional but not equiped with kit or the mentality to go for a proper dust up although I have been along side them in Africa and the Near East, always good to know they are around.

Bulgarians

They used to have a superb reputation accross Europe when fighting the Turk (we may need them again on this soon enough), any one know if they deploy?

Estonia

Get around and game, not heard any complaints, I love the women & I believe the equipment is up to scratch

Hungarians

Again Kosova for me, overjoyed to be working with Nato, doing their best, horrible dentistry but not heard that they have deployed since?
 
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Note post edited to correct details:

An estimated over 50,000 Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belorussians, Slovakians 'police' battalion / KZ guard types, collaberators, Nazi village Mayors etc. joined the Free Polish Forces by the ruse of enlisting into the Free Polish forces from POW camps from post DDay onwards - as long you were convincing and could claim you had been pressganged by the Hun you had a very good chance of swapping flags, with a new Country for home at the end if you survived.

An estimated third of this 50,000 made it to the UK.

No criticism of the Polish Free forces is intended here, the borders between the countries above had been in a flux for decades and it was easy to claim your part was Polish not so long ago, how can you check? When you have Koreans dragooned into the Imperial Japanese Army, then captured and gulaged by the Soviets, then pressed into the Red Army and captured by the Germans then pressed again into service ending up manning coastal defences on DDay. Then being captured by the Yanks* shows just how many nationalities had been pressed into 'service' by the Krauts and could claim it was nothing to do with them. And then add the forced labourers on top, bedlam.

The so called 'Cossacking' was at the specific request of Stalin he wanted ALL former Soviet citizens: RONA, Hiwis, Vlasov's Cossacks etc it didn't really apply to non Soviet citizens.

If you were a wrong un especially low level and not German you were on a fairly clear road, for example just how many actual German Nazi war criminals in the British zone and POW camps were not prosecuted? NB Yanks much worse on this.

* see 'the long way home'

Source



It was very much in the interest of the Free Polish Forces to recruit as many new personnel as possible in the final stages of the war.

Several reasons:

Polish Army units in exile in the West were always under strength. Not enough troops got out of Poland in 1939 and they then went to fight in defence of France and even less got over to Britain in 1940. These were intended to grow and form the 1st Polish Corps, but in reality only one full strength division (1st Polish Armoured) came into being as well as the 1st Independent Polish Parachute Brigade and some smaller units. The “Anders Army” of Polish evacuees from Stalin’s Gulag formed the 2nd Polish Corps in the Middle East, but all units within it remained under strength and “punched above their weight” in the Italian campaign, incurring many casualties.

The Free Poles were fighting for an equitable post-war settlement and a free Poland. They felt that the greater was their commitment to fighting then the greater was the chance of achieving it.

In addition, the Poles had no illusions about Stalin’s aims and ambitions and believed that there was a high probability of an outbreak of hostilities between the Soviet Union and the Western Allies and wanted to be in a good position to have as many troops as possible to help liberate their homeland.

Furthermore, to improve the Polish claim on the “Kresy” the eastern borderlands annexed by the USSR in 1939 and retaken in 1944, it was politically advantageous to have Polish citizens of Latvian, Lithuanian, Belarusian and Ukrainian ethnicity enrolled in the Free Polish Army.

As stated, it was very difficult to check up on past deeds of all individuals volunteering to join the Polish Armed Forces and many unsavoury individuals got a chance at whitewashing their past. The BBC story quoted is a very good example of the fact that among these there were also some ethnic Poles. This, despite the unrealistic claims of the current Polish government. Such an attitude helps in spreading anti-Polish disinformation and besmirches the vast majority of Poles who refused to collaborate with the Nazis.
 
Same excellent experience with the Swedes in Africa.

A comic moment when the SWE LOG officier asked how the selective sorting of waste was organized by the host nation.

As he was asking, a liquid human waste pumptruck drove by and went straight ahead in the desert. It drove no more than 3 km , then stopped and dropped about 5 tons of human shit in the wild.

Since we were on top of a berm, we were able to see the whole sequence. We looked at the SWE LOG officer and just said "Et voilà"....
 
Prompted by a request upthread and based purely on some open source, including Russian language and personal opinion:

Russia
Nowhere near as big and scary and competent as they'd like us to think. Small(ish) number of extremely well-equipped formations, say around a Corps or so in total in European Russia (2-3 divisions, including some airborne and special forces). Very, very strong on artillery, air defence and ISTAR, decent panzers and pretty reasonable professional (contract troops). However, logistically very thin, very low stocks of modern munitions, national infrastructure, including roads, railways and the like very ragged and in desperate need of maintenance and an economy in the toilet - if oil's not north of $80 or more a barrel, they only really have gas and a huge amount of GDP is routinely quite simply stolen.

Limited air and maritime assets, what's available is being sweated hard to give the appearance of far more than is actually at hand.

Can put on a good short-term show and, given an existential conflict, could probably generate a Soviet Union-style 1970s/80s - equipped military from stock, anything after 1990, not so much. A whole generation has now largely missed conscription, so no immediately available reserves.

What they've got at hand might make it halfway across Poland before getting slaughtered.

Essentially bluffing the living shit out of the West, except in grey operations like info and cyber where they desperately need a bit of a spanking to teach them some manners. Notably the GRU needs reminding of how nations and intelligence services interact.
Russia look huge, thanks to the map projection, it’s not really that big and there’s a lot of nothing there.
24B93569-6C71-4657-9071-2160219EC678.jpeg
 

QRK2

LE
If you were a wrong un especially low level and not German you were on a fairly clear road, for example just how many actual German Nazi war criminals in the British zone and POW camps were not prosecuted? NB Yanks much worse on this.

One of the better known ex-SS US Army officers, who gets mentioned on here quite often.


Not to mention Surmbannführer Von Braun


 
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Hopefully in about 25 years time when I'm sat in a pool of my own shit in a maximum security care unit for the terminally bewildered. With a big Hd TV to watch it on .
You will still get called up, snowflakes can not even be shouted at
 
I have not seen any mention of the following:

Romanians

Welcome anywhere and take soldiering very seriously, I have never heard a bad word about them, sons of Emperor Trajan

Swedes

I found them to be superbly professional and useful (Kosovo)

Irish

Excellent in UN peace keeping roles, calm, balanced and professional but not equiped with kit or the mentality to go for a proper dust up although I have been along side them in Africa and the Near East, always good to know they are around.

Bulgarians

They used to have a superb reputation accross Europe when fighting the Turk (we may need them again on this soon enough), any one know if they deploy?

Estonia

Get around and game, not heard any complaints, I love the women & I believe the equipment is up to scratch

Hungarians

Again Kosova for me, overjoyed to be working with Nato, doing their best, horrible dentistry but not heard that they have deployed since?
Hungarians are deployed with EUFOR in BiH in Coy+ numbers.
Edited - and in Kosovo in KFOR.
 
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I got to meet and work with some Belgian soldiers in the late 1990s on a couple of exercises at Arlon in southern Belgium.

I was quite impressed with them (the Chasseurs Ardenais were pretty nails IIRC) but, as I understand it, the Belgian miltary has been gutted by politicians, the "peace dividend" and the lack of any meaningful government and the potential split between the French and Flemish (?) speaking populations.

Edited to add - I used to have a friend who was a Major in the 1eme Regiment des Guides. I just rembered him complaining that one problem was all orders had to be given in both French and Flemish to keep both groups happy. He told me that British O Groups were a lot faster as ony one language was used.
I met a Belgian soldier from SHAPE in Kandahar . He asked if it was true that he could get the darts on his computer (BFBS DVT) I told him that I would do it.
Six months later he was in Brussum (NATO) and ask me to take him to another Belgian WO.
I took him and they started chatting in English which was the accepted way when and English speaker was present.
I told them that I was off so speak their Mickey Mouse language, they said that they could not. Again I told them that I was going.
At this point they told me they have to speak in English as one spoke Dutch/English and one spoke French/English
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
I wouldn't surprised if we end up with PID Transponders integrated into uniforms/kit that are picked up somehow through weapon sights for the grunt on the ground.

Dunno how - I'm just the ideas man....

We very nearly almost not quite could've been if they'd tried harder sort of had that kindof in 2009. A lot of wires, a lot of wee beige boxes, all hiding what appeared to be old, shitty Nokia mobile phones. The IC of the section had a different box from the rest, and it was like an 80's movie with the circular rings denoting the ranges, and little dots appearing within the circle to represent where your men were.

Unfortunately, it was absolute utter dogshit and we sent it all back (somewhat damaged having 'stress tested' it.
 

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