OTC working with the ACF

#1
I am a TA soldier who works with the ACF and I have a some questions for members of the OTC and ACF. I am asking because I have been given the job of liasing with OTC to help out at camps camps.

What do the OTC think of working with the ACF and what did you get out of it?

What do Instructors and members of the ACF feel about OTC working with them?

It seems to me that some OTCs have a bad image of working with cadets. Is there anyway I can improve this I am already going to do a talk at the OTC. Some ACF units I have worked with seem to have a very good relationship with there local OTC which I found very benefical for both groups.
 
#2
minime33 said:
It seems to me that some OTCs have a bad image of working with cadets. Is there anyway I can improve this I am already going to do a talk at the OTC. Some ACF units I have worked with seem to have a very good relationship with there local OTC which I found very benefical for both groups.
It only becomes an issue when some jumped up little cunt who has joined "Army Club" at University starts to think that he/she is a real officer. On the plus side, dirty young pert female O/CDTS who will do ANYTHING for a good time are possibly the best thing about it.

No really, you need to brief up your OTC lot about THEIR status, and brief up the ACF lot about THEIR status. Thats all. In my previous experiences, OTC Cadets and ACF Adult personell can have an excellent working relationship.

I think you'll also need to recognise that the OTC do a lot of Fieldcraft and Orders, but not much drill and turnout, or such subjects. So it may be an idea to have a pre-camp meeting and find out what skills they are actually bringing to the party.

Regards

PM me if you want some reminicenses!

P
 
#3
Praetorian said:
[It only becomes an issue when some jumped up little cunt who has joined "Army Club" at University starts to think that he/she is a real officer.

No really, you need to brief up your OTC lot about THEIR status, and brief up the ACF lot about THEIR status.
That is the answer on a plate.
 
#4
You shouldn't have to brief people about different status. If an Officer Cadet starts acting like the Generalissimo then you should be able to have a quiet word. Don't presume that the people who get attached want to lord it over the kids. In my experience we acted like - and were treated - like guests. Going away with the ACF is viewed, principally, as a way to make easy bucks.

There's a very strange mix when the OTC cadets are in a mess with ACF officers (regarding the difference in age, above all). As has been mentioned, working relationships are not a problem.

I think you'll also need to recognise that the OTC do a lot of Fieldcraft and Orders, but not much drill and turnout, or such subjects. So it may be an idea to have a pre-camp meeting and find out what skills they are actually bringing to the party.
This is the key issue that needs to be addressed. Officer Cadets who are in their 3rd or 4th year may be well versed in the orders process, battle drills and so on are commonly “attached” to a company of cadets - shadowing their activities for the whole two weeks.

This can mean days on end of sitting around while the kids do adventurous training, or shooting, or any one of a million activities that Officer Cadets can’t help with. Sunbathing to get your £40 a day actually gets quite tedious.

Find out what the attached individuals can do. Then let them get on with it.
 
#5
I went to 'help' out at the CCF central camp last summer and can honestly say it was the most boring week of my life. In 6 days I clocked up over 30 hours of stag, alot of it on the ranges in 8 hrs solo stints.

When the OTC was looking for OCdts to go it seems like we would be helping the cadets train. We were pretty much banned from talking to the cadets. The foor was like being on half rations inculding the gas supply.

I agree if you give too much unguided responsability to a newly quilifed Q1 then your going to get shit results but if you've got a switched on Q2 and above then both the cadets and the OCdt will benifit.

Remember the OTC is a training unit (hence the T) and so different OCdt's will be a different stages of training.
 
#6
Cheers guys. Looks like I'll need to work at both sides I'll pop into Coy HQ and discuss more involvement with the OTC MTQ 2 qualified with training during and prior to camp instead of stag. On the OTC side I'll pop in and have a chat and try and get the lads and lassies who are not just there for the money. I'll let you know how it goes.
 
#7
Hi,

I spent 2 weeks over the summer working with an ACF at Wretham and it was a mixed experience....

We went there almost under false pretences.....it seems the OTC to many in the ACF was a glorified guard force, and some days I actually was on the gate for 18 hours +....pretty boring!

Interaction with the kids was minimal....despite the fact OCdts are fully security vetted like all TA soliders, it seems that this in depth background check would miss the fact we were paedophiles so we weren't allowed much interaction at all; in 2 weeks i spent only 2 days actually training cadets (with a SI present so I wouldn't fiddle them)

Also the OTC is a grey area.....to some ACF instructors (normally that minority who have all the gear, no idea, 'SF background' and who live out their waltish fantasies through cadets) we are worse than cadets, we're a bunch of make believe STAB cnuts with officerly ideas above our station and they let us know that. On the other extreme, some instuctors only saw the "officer" of "officer cadet", saw us staying in the officers mess and assumed we were 'sirs'.....even had one SMI have his Coy eyes right me!

Without blowing my own trumpet, people underestimate the OTC's training due to ignorance. Even a first year OTC OCdt has a good level of field training...more than some instructors! I mean when was the last time ACF SIs commanded sections and platoons in a 2 Coy FIBUA assault (which we did, and do regularly as an OTC)?

Due to the selection process (and yes there are some choppers, as with any unit) OCdts tend to be of a high calibre, independant and confident. We don't need a week long Method of Instruction course to teach us how to teach, for many it comes naturally. I found the two days I did instruct highly rewarding, and like to think the cadets themselves responded better to a young, confident person than some of the waltism that is sadly too apparent in the ACF.

I brought some of this up at the time, and was told (honestly this made me ******* laugh) the reason we were there was as "serving soldiers" (!??) who had recently passed an APWT we could also stag on with rifles if the need arose. For fucks sake. As if.

Would I do it again? yes, and I probably will. But I do feel that we could have been used a lot better!

PM me with any questions if you want!
 
#8
blonde_guy said:
despite the fact OCdts are fully security vetted like all TA soliders, it seems that this in depth background check would miss the fact we were paedophiles so we weren't allowed much interaction at all; in 2 weeks i spent only 2 days actually training cadets (with a SI present so I wouldn't fiddle them)
Obviously you'll know this... or not; to work with children you need a Criminal Records Background (CRB) check. Which you as a fully, by fully you mean a CTC check at most, vetted Officer Cadet will not have - they're expensive and you're not worth it. The ACF adult has to accompany you as they are CRB checked and will stop any paedophilic desires you might have but noone knows about because you are not suitably vetted.
 
#9
blonde_guy said:
I brought some of this up at the time, and was told (honestly this made me * laugh) the reason we were there was as "serving soldiers" (!??) who had recently passed an APWT we could also stag on with rifles if the need arose. For fucks sake. As if.
Fuck me. That is walty. Silly cunts. Sound like you got chatting to a bunch of proper mongs mate.
 
#10
blonde_guy said:
Without blowing my own trumpet, people underestimate the OTC's training due to ignorance. Even a first year OTC OCdt has a good level of field training...more than some instructors! I mean when was the last time ACF SIs commanded sections and platoons in a 2 Coy FIBUA assault (which we did, and do regularly as an OTC)?

Due to the selection process (and yes there are some choppers, as with any unit) OCdts tend to be of a high calibre, independant and confident. We don't need a week long Method of Instruction course to teach us how to teach, for many it comes naturally. I found the two days I did instruct highly rewarding, and like to think the cadets themselves responded better to a young, confident person than some of the waltism that is sadly too apparent in the ACF.

Would I do it again? yes, and I probably will. But I do feel that we could have been used a lot better!
It is generally always good to have people with different experience come and assist on camps (regular, TA, OTC) as it gives the cadets something different and can bring some different skills in. I have always had good experiences of the OTC helping out on my ACF Annual Camps.

However, what concerns me about the above quote is that blonde_guy appears to be looking down on ACF instructors. He is correct in that we don't lead FIBUA attacks - but that is not in the ACF manual. What we do do is train and be responsible for the young people of the cadet force week in, week out, weekends and summer camp. We must make sure the training is planned safely, is enjoyable for the cadets, that we have the correct qualifications and that we monitor it as it happens so that the cadets go home safely and with smiles at the end of each activity.

Our courses cover far more than MOI as we need more knowledge than that to do what we do safely. Most ACF instructors are motivated, confident and have a great deal of experience in training cadets. Turning up and teaching for 2 days on camp is not the only part of an ACF instructors job.

I am happy for any assistance on camps, I have always found that OTC are very helpful and can add a great deal to a camp. But they must do it under the guidance of the ACF professionals.
 
#11
Praetorian said:
blonde_guy said:
I brought some of this up at the time, and was told (honestly this made me * laugh) the reason we were there was as "serving soldiers" (!??) who had recently passed an APWT we could also stag on with rifles if the need arose. For fucks sake. As if.
Fuck me. That is walty. Silly cunts. Sound like you got chatting to a bunch of proper mongs mate.
Praetorian,

what was even scarier was my 2 week stint coincided with those bomb plots with the liquids on the planes, so the alert state went up. A whole host of self important ACF officers felt the need to grace the guard room with their presence to brief us, and the prospect of armed guard was actually seriously suggested by one ACF captain!

As for the CRB check, I do understand that we might need them; we aren't worth it though? well I was worth 2 weeks of MTDs to the ACF!! Was just a shame that no real attempt was made for us to be supervised in the training, with the exception of the couple of days I assisted a coy in the field. Aspects of our OTC training would be quite helpful in some respects I feel...
 
#12
combat_gnome said:
blonde_guy said:
Without blowing my own trumpet, people underestimate the OTC's training due to ignorance. Even a first year OTC OCdt has a good level of field training...more than some instructors! I mean when was the last time ACF SIs commanded sections and platoons in a 2 Coy FIBUA assault (which we did, and do regularly as an OTC)?

Due to the selection process (and yes there are some choppers, as with any unit) OCdts tend to be of a high calibre, independant and confident. We don't need a week long Method of Instruction course to teach us how to teach, for many it comes naturally. I found the two days I did instruct highly rewarding, and like to think the cadets themselves responded better to a young, confident person than some of the waltism that is sadly too apparent in the ACF.

Would I do it again? yes, and I probably will. But I do feel that we could have been used a lot better!
It is generally always good to have people with different experience come and assist on camps (regular, TA, OTC) as it gives the cadets something different and can bring some different skills in. I have always had good experiences of the OTC helping out on my ACF Annual Camps.

However, what concerns me about the above quote is that blonde_guy appears to be looking down on ACF instructors. He is correct in that we don't lead FIBUA attacks - but that is not in the ACF manual. What we do do is train and be responsible for the young people of the cadet force week in, week out, weekends and summer camp. We must make sure the training is planned safely, is enjoyable for the cadets, that we have the correct qualifications and that we monitor it as it happens so that the cadets go home safely and with smiles at the end of each activity.

Our courses cover far more than MOI as we need more knowledge than that to do what we do safely. Most ACF instructors are motivated, confident and have a great deal of experience in training cadets. Turning up and teaching for 2 days on camp is not the only part of an ACF instructors job.

I am happy for any assistance on camps, I have always found that OTC are very helpful and can add a great deal to a camp. But they must do it under the guidance of the ACF professionals.
combat_gnome....

sorry my post did seem a bit general, and in hindsight I admit it does appear that way and for that I apologise.

The majority of ACF officers I have encountered have been fine, and are in it purely for helping the cadets have the most fun they can and do a good job at this. Also I am not knocking you for being leaders, as undoubtedly you are, just in a different way to which we are being trained for.

My comments were aimed at the minority who sadly by their actions are being detrimental to the rest. I am sure you know the type. The amount of "stories" (not only involving their past as first man into the Iranian embassy but also what their cadets have done) I had the pleasure of listening to from this minority in the bar etc. was mind boggling....and impossible.

I appreciate the safety aspects etc. of the ACF....I was an AI for a year, albeit in a CCF during my gap year...but what my gripe was aimed at was that minority that think and tell you they are something they are not.

Now I am an OTC bloke and in no way do I seek to paint myself as some sort of RAMBOesque figure....but I hope you can see my point
 
#13
blonde_guy said:
As for the CRB check, I do understand that we might need them; we aren't worth it though? well I was worth 2 weeks of MTDs to the ACF!! Was just a shame that they couldn't at least try; and the standard of many of their own instructors was that we could have actually been beneficiary in training cadets
If you understand you 'might' need them, why didn't you point this out originally? It's not a case of might. You are not worth it as a member of the UOTC, as it takes somebody time to check you out and costs money - for someone who might work with kids once, maybe a few more times, it's hardly cost effective. You were worth the MTDs, paid by your UOTC or Bde (not the ACF) for all that stag you did - best you stick to what you obviously do best. I find it a tad worrying, that you as a MTQ2 - not even the TA's module 2, OCdt feels they can judge the ACF instructors. Best you judge them after you've done something like a Bde module 3 or module 4.
 
#14
manchestercop said:
blonde_guy said:
As for the CRB check, I do understand that we might need them; we aren't worth it though? well I was worth 2 weeks of MTDs to the ACF!! Was just a shame that they couldn't at least try; and the standard of many of their own instructors was that we could have actually been beneficiary in training cadets
If you understand you 'might' need them, why didn't you point this out originally? It's not a case of might. You are not worth it as a member of the UOTC, as it takes somebody time to check you out and costs money - for someone who might work with kids once, maybe a few more times, it's hardly cost effective. You were worth the MTDs, paid by your UOTC or Bde (not the ACF) for all that stag you did - best you stick to what you obviously do best. I find it a tad worrying, that you as a MTQ2 - not even the TA's module 2, OCdt feels they can judge the ACF instructors. Best you judge them after you've done something like a Bde module 3 or module 4.
Right, I can see this slipping into an OTC Vs ACF post, which was not my intention. Do I feel I can judge ACF instructors? Some, yes, in the same way I find myself judging anyone in society. My position in the OTC has got f.a to do with it; all I was pointing out was that there was a bad minority, something which each unit or whatever will have.

Before I standby for incoming from people agreeing and pointing me out as my units bad minority, minime33 asked for the OTC's views and experiences on working with the ACF, and I have given my own experiences, good and bad, experiences and views I shared with 6 other OCdts there with me. Doubtless I have pissed some people off with my ranting, judging and views....such is the nature of debate!

I hope through pointing out the negative aspects of my time with the ACF, minime33 can address them for the next group of OTC chaps and ladies who volunteer to assist the ACF, so that both parties, ACF & OTC, get the most out of it.
 
#15
manchestercop said:
blonde_guy said:
despite the fact OCdts are fully security vetted like all TA soliders, it seems that this in depth background check would miss the fact we were paedophiles so we weren't allowed much interaction at all; in 2 weeks i spent only 2 days actually training cadets (with a SI present so I wouldn't fiddle them)
Obviously you'll know this... or not; to work with children you need a Criminal Records Background (CRB) check. Which you as a fully, by fully you mean a CTC check at most, vetted Officer Cadet will not have - they're expensive and you're not worth it. The ACF adult has to accompany you as they are CRB checked and will stop any paedophilic desires you might have but noone knows about because you are not suitably vetted.
CRB enchanced checks cost £37. Surely the cost of that could be covered by a unit as they'll only be a few of them? Equivelent of one days pay...
 
#16
I have worked on both sides of the fence and it seems to me that I will have to wade through a lot of bullsh*t on both sides. I can see that the OTC resent be used as a glorified guard, they do have a lot to offer to the cadets and can be a useful addition to a unit and there is a small minority who are there just for the money.

On the ACF side it seems strange they are prepared to accept help from member of the TA without really questioning there ability. With the shortage of instructors I am quite grateful for the help of number of OTC personel over the years.

Its clear that there needs be a good working relationship built up prior to camps so I will be asking the OTC for people to help out on weekends prior to camp so that I can hopefully seperate the decent lads from those there for money.
 
#17
minime33 you sound very 'switched on' to use a chiche that I hate. The only fault in the plan is that it requires organisation. Something sadly WUOTC and I'm sure other do to lack. Good luck I hope you have a sussesful camp.
 
#18
minime33
it seems to me that I will have to wade through a lot of bullsh*t on both sides.
Just a bit.

I think you are right about building the relationship prior to a camp. It is pretty clear to me that unless both sides know what they want and can get from the other people are likely to be disappointed.

So some thoughts;

Stagging on? OTC can expect to do it, AI's have to. Officers don't. OTC are not officers. End of story.

To paraphrase blonde_guy the OTC may seriously underestimate AI's. Some of us have commanded units really fighting in built up areas with a proper enemy firing live rounds at us. In my case becoming a casually. Perhaps I would have fared better had I been instructed by an officer cadet? Fibua, if we do it for cadets, is an interest only subject. It does not from part of the sylabus so it is just a bit of fun. Should I need realistic warfare type instruction that I am not capable of providing I'll go to 1 - 7 Rifles where my Regiment will provide all the help I need.

There are many occasions when I could use demonstration troops, enemy, etc. In return I would be willing to let OTC guys get something from me. If for example that is being "Platoon Commander" to my cadets for a couple of weeks that is fine, but whatver it is it has to be subordinate to me because I act in loco parentis. Them is not my rules. Them is THE rules.
 
#19
oh dear I seem to have pissed off a few people...

Gwailo, I am not suggesting that an OCdt teaching you would have improved anything at all, and am, genuinely sorry to have irked you in this way. I know a lot of AIs like yourself have been there & done it and probably get annoyed at some walty little OCdt like me; all I have tried to do is highlighy MY own views of MY time with the ACF and in no way am I saying I am necessarily right.

I guess one of the points I am trying to make is that the OTC and the ACF don't perhaps know much about each other. A point I made earlier was the lack of definition for us. We are not deliberately walting around pretending to be officers, yet to many we are a no mans land between soldiers and officers...the ACF put us up in the officers mess, half the ppl call us sir etc....we're not asking for it it just happens!

I just feel we could have been better used. Yes AIs do have to stag on, and we should have to do our bit too.....but in 2 weeks there i did 2 days of non-stagging on. The other 12 days I was either in the guard room or getting my head down after someones bright idea of 24hr guard shifts where we were lucky to ket 4 or 5 hours kip.
 
#20
I guess one of the points I am trying to make is that the OTC and the ACF don't perhaps know much about each other.
What irks me is that you appear to talk the talk but not walk the walk. You have spent time with cadets, but obviously don't know much about them.

You assume that you can teach cadets things that the ACF can't. That is simply wrong. We have, either in house or available from the Reg/TA units we are affiliated to, people far more qualified and experienced for that. So we don't need instructors or commanders, the things you appear to be offering.

That is not to say we can't use help, we can and we are grateful for it wherever it comes from. Some of the helpful things you can do are things you aren't happy about doing. Stagging on for example. As an AI I have to stag on and the more of us there are then the less often we have to do it. Very helpful when I also have to do preparation for the following day. I would be happy to allow you to teach cadets if it would benefit you, but please don't kid yourself it is helping me. I still have to supervise you and could teach the kids anything you could and more. I would be happy to allow you to practise being a platoon commander, but again that benefits you not me or my cadets. If you wanted to do something useful to me then providing demonstration troops for lessons I give is one thing, and there are many others that you could assist me with. But what I would value is assistance, not instructors or commanders.

Instead of telling us what you want to do far cadets it might be more sensible to explain what you want from a relationship with the ACF. If you want to be an instructor/commander then join the ACF. If you want us to help you out by giving you the opportunity to practise instruction/command then say so. I am sure we can accomodate you under the supervision of an ACF adult.

I just feel we could have been better used.
Well show me anyone in green who does not regularly have that thought.
I can't condem or condone the way you were treated as I don't know what was discussed or agreed between the parties. If you were told your duties would be other than they were then you have a right to feel agrieved, a lesson to be learned though. Next time don't do an ACF camp unless you know pretty well on what terms you are doing it and if you don't like the terms just don't do it at all.
 

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