OTC fallout from the RoTR

#1
Hardysa said:
WingletangScale said:
I think the OTC will be scaled down too - measured on output.
Are the OTC being included in this review?
Bloody hell....That will be none left then..

To my mind, if MoD want the OTC to provide some sort of exposure to the army for possible future leaders in society, then MoD can pay for it out of someone else's budget, NOT the budget of the only real reserve that the Regular army has left..
 
#2
Why not make the OTCs part of the TA they do 2-4 years training and have to serve x years return for service in either TA or regular army?

Or make the OTCs a non-deployable/emergency deployable part of the TA (I know it would mean large parts of the unit would be little use on ops etc)

Or just get rid of it and let them join the TA?
 
#3
irlsgt said:
Why not make the OTCs part of the TA they do 2-4 years training and have to serve x years return for service in either TA or regular army?

Or make the OTCs a non-deployable/emergency deployable part of the TA (I know it would mean large parts of the unit would be little use on ops etc)

Or just get rid of it and let them join the TA?
The OTCs are a non deployable part of the TA. And if the emergency was big enough I'm sure a lot of them would find themselves being asked to help ... (probably by filling sandbags or something equally menial).
 
#4
My OTC did provide around 15 soldiers on OP PENNISULA in 2001 in support of MAFF/DEFRA for 3 months +. Furthermore (I can only speak of my own experience) my OTC did produce a significant amount of TA officers, and a good many including myself went from TA to OTC back to TA/regular army much better for it too. It is a worthwhile institution and I did far harder exercises/training there than I have in the TA (PDT/OPS not included of course)
 
#5
HVM_Boy said:
irlsgt said:
Why not make the OTCs part of the TA they do 2-4 years training and have to serve x years return for service in either TA or regular army?

Or make the OTCs a non-deployable/emergency deployable part of the TA (I know it would mean large parts of the unit would be little use on ops etc)

Or just get rid of it and let them join the TA?
The OTCs are a non deployable part of the TA. And if the emergency was big enough I'm sure a lot of them would find themselves being asked to help ... (probably by filling sandbags or something equally menial).
Can you fit a student in a sandbag?
 
#6
Hopkins said:
HVM_Boy said:
irlsgt said:
Why not make the OTCs part of the TA they do 2-4 years training and have to serve x years return for service in either TA or regular army?

Or make the OTCs a non-deployable/emergency deployable part of the TA (I know it would mean large parts of the unit would be little use on ops etc)

Or just get rid of it and let them join the TA?
The OTCs are a non deployable part of the TA. And if the emergency was big enough I'm sure a lot of them would find themselves being asked to help ... (probably by filling sandbags or something equally menial).
Can you fit a student in a sandbag?
Current thinking is that whilst they are a nice to have, the days of 'nice to have' are over. Measurable output is the order of the day.

One plan is for an OTC cadet to opt out of TA service after leaving University rather than the current 'opt in'. In other words, joining the OTC is effectively agreeing to join the TA as an Officer, a bit like recruits now going through the system anticipating an Op Tour...we simply can't afford the OTC 'wider community/business empathy' bit anymore...financially or operationally.

Bear in mind that the difference between an A or B commission is negligible.
 
#7
Before we all get too excited about the idea of forcing the OTC to pay its way by requiring OTC types to become TA officers, could we please bear in mind the natural, albeit horrific, consequence:

more OTC types coming straight into the TA as officers.

The horror.
 
#8
Dr_Evil said:
Before we all get too excited about the idea of forcing the OTC to pay its way by requiring OTC types to become TA officers, could we please bear in mind the natural, albeit horrific, consequence:

more OTC types coming straight into the TA as officers.

The horror.
Too true - it would be just as much forcing units to accept them as forcing them to join. All a bit pointless anyway as it's casual labour and as soon as the majority realiiese what jobs ('real world' and 'real TA') entails they won't hand around.
 
#9
Dr_Evil said:
Before we all get too excited about the idea of forcing the OTC to pay its way by requiring OTC types to become TA officers, could we please bear in mind the natural, albeit horrific, consequence:

more OTC types coming straight into the TA as officers.

The horror.
There is a threshold to cross before entry ;)

Are you ex-OTC?

msr
 
#10
OTCs, by and large, are student clubs which use the TA system to train officers and organise social events and it's true that many who join never have anything else to do with the Military, but let's not forget the fact that the very nature of what they aim to achieve often makes the majority of them the subject matter experts on Officer Trg.

As such, the general standard of training (excluding arms trg obviously) can be greater than that of Bde level. It is certainly more involved as the numbers are larger and the social/sport side help keep them in for the duration of the trg. Additionally, OTCs often encourage those who had never thought of a military career before think about going all the way - another thing you don't get with Bde trg.

If you look at the numbers at Sandhurst, courses are usually about 50/50 if not slightly more from OTC meaning get rid of them and you will drop the number of YO by even more.

Yes they don't do themselves any favours by having a low "conversion" ratio on numbers joining and they get into the national press for stupid antics (which is typical of any military organisation OR student club!) but they do feed many, many people into the regulars and the TA and should not be written off just yet.

AAR
 
#11
I suspect that the overwhelming majority of OTC types who go on the be Commissioned intended to to do before they joined the OTC.

Then again, as has been pointed out, the main reason behind the OTC is not to produce Officers, its a PR effort. Given this, why should the TA pay for them? Why not some central budget?
 
#12
Let's not bash the OTC in this thread...
 
#13
Bravo_Bravo said:
I suspect that the overwhelming majority of OTC types who go on the be Commissioned intended to to do before they joined the OTC.

Then again, as has been pointed out, the main reason behind the OTC is not to produce Officers, its a PR effort. Given this, why should the TA pay for them? Why not some central budget?
The PR effort line is an old one that is churned out to avoid accusations of active recruitment at a higher education facility.
The OTC is a recruiting tool, but a politically sensitive one. It was looked at one stage for OTC training to count towards time at sandhurst, in order to shorten the commissioning course, but the idea was fortunately binned.

Many in the OTC may have considered joining the army before joining the OTC, but memebership of the OTC helps ensure during their 3 or 4 years at uni they don't get distracted too much and keeps the interest going.

If OTCs are to be cut, then it should be done on a league table of entrants to RMAS.

Interestingly, OTCs don't produce as many TA officers post OTC as Regular, so there is a slight TA/OTC disconnect.
 
#14
Over the past 4-5 years, almost all of the young officers in EWRR/4 YORKS and Tyne Tees/5 RRF have all been from an OTC and this trend seems to be continuing now...
 
#15
smallbrownprivates said:
Bravo_Bravo said:
If OTCs are to be cut, then it should be done on a league table of entrants to RMAS.
What kind of entrants to RMAS? Regular or TA or Both?

And how could such a cut be made when the aim of producing officers has not been in the OTC mission statement before?

Perhaps it should be in the mission statement, but the OTCs would need at least 3 years to get this into their plans.
 
#16
Strange. Here we are with some unknown/guessed about set of changes coming down the pike and the first thing that some of us can find to do is suggest that one of the better recruited parts of the organisation, the OTCs, are binned. Reminds me of my dog, who bites the nearest thing to her when frightened by a stange noise.

There are changes afoot in the OTCs - major drive towards getting more Gp A Commissions for a start. Functional control being handed to Sandhurst last year is going to make a major difference.

Bottom line is that the OTCs have got 4000 people recruited, who have expressed some sort of interest in the Army. In marketing terms I think thats called a "warm lead". The question should be how does the TA persuade them to go Gp A when they graduate. The OTC "offer" is well stated and obviously hitting the spot - the TA Officer offer is a lot less clear and I'd suggest not that attractive ? What we should be addressing is how we engage with these folk and bring them onboard.
 
#17
saladin said:
Strange. Here we are with some unknown/guessed about set of changes coming down the pike and the first thing that some of us can find to do is suggest that one of the better recruited parts of the organisation, the OTCs, are binned. Reminds me of my dog, who bites the nearest thing to her when frightened by a stange noise.

There are changes afoot in the OTCs - major drive towards getting more Gp A Commissions for a start. Functional control being handed to Sandhurst last year is going to make a major difference.

Bottom line is that the OTCs have got 4000 people recruited, who have expressed some sort of interest in the Army. In marketing terms I think thats called a "warm lead". The question should be how does the TA persuade them to go Gp A when they graduate. The OTC "offer" is well stated and obviously hitting the spot - the TA Officer offer is a lot less clear and I'd suggest not that attractive ? What we should be addressing is how we engage with these folk and bring them onboard.
First Point:- If the drive is to more Group A commissions and Sandhurst to drive, then why is the Budget of the reserves being used to pay for it? Cake, Icing and eat springs to mind

Second Point:- 3 years OTC is a sort of gentle beat up and briefing course for Sandhurst. As such it's pretty clear what you get out of it. Join OTC, 3 years training with some heavy drinking, and sexual misadventures with the odd bout of unwanted publicty and the odd foreign trip. At the end you get to go regular and face the joys of a regular career with the baton of Field Marshal in your daysack ( ripping off a phrase). a TA commission, following some threads on here, is pretty much a no Brainer. Why bother putting yourself through that grief for f**k all long term gain.
 
#18
[quote="KitmarloweFirst Point:- If the drive is to more Group A commissions and Sandhurst to drive, then why is the Budget of the reserves being used to pay for it? Cake, Icing and eat springs to mind

Err - You do know that a Group A Commission is a TA commission ? Are you thinking Sandhurst is only for regulars ?

Second Point:- ............ a TA commission..... putting yourself through that grief for f**k all long term gain.[/quote]

The OTCs contain 4000 people who have expressed at least some interest in the Army. Of those who stay in the OTC to graduation my local OTC manages to get roughly 20% to join the TA. What needs to happen to improve that number ? Throwing away the opportunity to reach them because you think the training programme is wrong is a tad illogical.

Try suggesting some better ways forward ?

How about:

Genuine "Selection" and faster weeding of deadwood - not that weeding actually saves any money, it just keeps the numbers more realistic. Being totally non PC the airhead who only turns up to the parties and acouple of cushy weekends costs the taxpayer SFA but may well be what is keeping genuine PO Shagnasty turning up too.

OTC funding based on output - Top OTC for Commissions in a Bde gets a 10% lift, worst gets a 10% cut.

Bin the Group B Commission.

Fill as many places on TA summer camp with OCdts as possible - my local TA Inf Bn has about 100 gaps on its forthcoming OTX. Intro to TA for the players, Indians for the TA Chiefs to command.

Better quality TA staff posted to the OTCs - Not just the elderly majors and downgraded SNCOs.

Faster rotation of slots - 2 years in the OTC then back to the unit instead of the current slow decline to retirement.

Something similar for NRPS staff. Might improve as NRPS 05 terms are rolled out.

Your ideas ?
 
#19
Better quality TA staff posted to the OTCs - Not just the elderly majors and downgraded SNCOs.

Having served under some rather outstanding products from Tayforth, their Elderly Majors and downgraded SNCOs are rather well equipped to guide potential officers.
In fact unless memory is playing tricks the instructors have had a lot of operational experience to fallback on.
 
#20
I'm pretty sure that the guys we send to ULOTC are pretty good - as are the bulk of the cadets we see. My Company have made a conscious effort to get TASOs out with us when we can - certainly we have had Puppies of War on the last three FTXs I've seen, as well as shooting & a dinner this weeknd.

But I do come from a very good Company...
 
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