Ord Wingate

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syledis

Guest
#1
I just watched a programme and it showed Orde Wingates grave at Arlington National Cemetery and it said he was buried withe crew of the plane he was in when it crashed.
My question is:

Is this seen as a huge honour for a Non American to be buried there, and how often does it happen?
 
#4
As you walk into Arlington, there is a pretty splendid equestrian statue on (IIRC) the right. It is FM Sir John Dill. He with Wingate and 22 others make up the British population of ANC!

(see Arlington National Cemetery for details)
 
S

syledis

Guest
#5
Thanks Cuddles (Ive always wanted to say that but hoped it was to a woman!)

What is the criteria for being laid to rest there?
 
#7
Thanks Cuddles (Ive always wanted to say that but hoped it was to a woman!)

What is the criteria for being laid to rest there?
Wiki is your friend...however I am minded to offer one stop know-it-all service this night!

Burial criteria
Part 553 of Title 32 of the Code of Federal Regulations establishes regulations for Arlington National Cemetery, including eligibility for interment (ground burial) and inurnment. Due to limited space, the criteria for ground burial eligibility are more restrictive than at other national cemeteries, as well as more restrictive than for inurnment in the columbarium.
The persons specified below are eligible for ground burial in Arlington National Cemetery, unless otherwise prohibited.[32] The last period of active duty of former members of the armed forces must have ended honorably. Interment may be of casketed or cremated remains.
Any active-duty member of the armed forces (except those members serving on active duty for training only).
Any veteran who is retired and eligible for retirement pay from service in the armed forces (including service members retired from a reserve component who served a period of active duty (other than for training)).
Any former member of the armed forces separated honorably prior to October 1, 1949, for medical reasons and who was rated at 30% or greater disabled effective on the day of discharge.
Any former member of the armed forces who has been awarded one of the following decorations:
Medal of Honor
Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, or Air Force Cross
Distinguished Service Medal
Silver Star
Purple Heart
Any former member of the armed forces who served on active duty (other than for training) and who held any of the following positions:
An elective office of the U.S. Government (such as a term in Congress).
Office of the Chief Justice of the United States or of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.
An office listed, at the time the person held the position, in 5 USC 5312 or 5313 (Levels I and II of the Executive Schedule).
The chief of a mission who was at any time during his/her tenure classified in Class I under the provisions of Section 411, Act of 13 August 1946, 60 Stat. 1002, as amended (22 USC 866) or as listed in State Department memorandum dated March 21, 1988.
Any former prisoner of war who, while a prisoner of war, served honorably in the active military, naval, or air service, whose last period of military, naval or air service terminated honorably and who died on or after November 30, 1993.
The spouse, widow or widower, minor child, or permanently dependent child, and certain unmarried adult children of any of the above eligible veterans.


Respectful silence is requested at Arlington.
The widow or widower of:
a member of the armed forces who was lost or buried at sea or fell out of a plane or officially determined to be permanently absent with a status of either missing or missing in action.
a member of the armed forces who is interred in a US military cemetery overseas that is maintained by the American Battle Monuments Commission.
The spouse, minor child, or permanently dependent child of any person already buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
The parents of a minor child, or permanently dependent child whose remains, based on the eligibility of a parent, are already buried at Arlington. A spouse divorced from the primary eligible, or widowed and remarried, is not eligible for interment.
Provided certain conditions are met, a former member of the armed forces may be buried in the same grave with a close relative who is already buried and is the primary eligible.
[edit]Inurnment criteria for columbarium
Due at least partly to the lack of space at the cemetery for ground burial, standards for inurnment (burial of cremated remains) in the columbarium are currently much less restrictive than for ground burial at the Cemetery. In general, any former member of the armed forces who served on active duty (other than for training) and whose last service terminated honorably is eligible for inurnment. Eligibility for inurnment is described fully in 32 C.F.R. § 553.15a.
[edit]Prohibitions against interment or memorialization
Congress has from time to time created prohibited categories of persons that, even if otherwise eligible for burial, lose that eligibility. One such prohibition is against certain persons who are convicted of committing certain state or federal capital crimes, as defined in 38 U.S. Code § 2411. Capital crime is a specifically defined term in the statute, and for state offenses can include offenses that are eligible for a life sentence (with or without parole). The reasoning for this provision originally was to prevent Timothy McVeigh from being eligible at Arlington National Cemetery, but it has since been amended to prevent others.
Also prohibited under the same statute are those determined, with clear and convincing evidence, to have avoided such conviction by death or flight.
 
#9
Wikipedia say's that seven of the ten dead were American and because the bodies were so badly burnt and the identification methods of the day were not good enough to identify them, all of them were buried at Arlington.
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#10
Wikipedia say's that seven of the ten dead were American and because the bodies were so badly burnt and the identification methods of the day were not good enough to identify them, all of them were buried at Arlington.
In a single plot:
 

Attachments

S

syledis

Guest
#11
Cheers all, i wasnt sure if it was seen as a huge honour or not and if it was requested by the families concerned
 
#13
I think the best death bed request should be " Bury me among Soldiers, the only Honest people in the world, they don't pretend to be anything other than what they are".
 
#14
Once again, a gem of information I have received. Just sparked my childhood interest in Orde Wingate, well actually The Chindits. Did the Wikiiiii thingy, more for an abridged and probably not quite correct information on Orde. By all accounts a complex man, or more along the lines of Sterling, Popski, Mayne et al.
 
#15
Once again, a gem of information I have received. Just sparked my childhood interest in Orde Wingate, well actually The Chindits. Did the Wikiiiii thingy, more for an abridged and probably not quite correct information on Orde. By all accounts a complex man, or more along the lines of Sterling, Popski, Mayne et al.
Onion-eating nudist, and ardent bible-thumping Zionist.

He was borderline certifiable, but he tickled WSC's appetite for placing extraordinary characters in high-profile roles, and then oiling the squeakiest wheel, regardless of the real military logic of any given situation.

I think there's an argument that says Wingate is responsible, in great measure, for inculcating (through his Special Night Squads in pre-war Palestine) in the present-day IDF, some (if not most) of the less admirable characteristics of their approasch to dealing with troublesome co-habitants of the so-called Holy Land.
 
#16
I read where he was posted out of Palestine (or somewhere there) due to his Jewish sympathies. Bit of a clash from the British held view of Arabian interests and the Jewish people.

I've always wondered if the Chindits would be classed as a 'SF' using the then units of the day ie LRDG, SAS, Popski's Army, and the roles & tasks that they were tasked under.
 
#17
I read where he was posted out of Palestine (or somewhere there) due to his Jewish sympathies. Bit of a clash from the British held view of Arabian interests and the Jewish people.

I've always wondered if the Chindits would be classed as a 'SF' using the then units of the day ie LRDG, SAS, Popski's Army, and the roles & tasks that they were tasked under.
They were ordinary conscript soldiers, in ordinary line battalions, pressed into unusual, and - in military terms - largely unproductive adventures, that were very costly in terms of the resources they tied up, and the men that never returned.

Wingate's reputation (remember that [a] he was favoured by Churchill; that admissions of failure were not a Brit strongsuit, hence; [c] Louis Mountbatten hoisted his chum 'Boy' Browning into a job at SEAC to spare him the shame of f#cking up big-time at Arnhem), hangs on his enthusiasts' assertion that he scored a mahoosive 'moral victory' by 'proving the Japs were not unbeatable supermen'. I don't know how you might satisfactorily evidence such an assertion - other than by repeating and repeating it, which doesn't really qualify as evidence, does it?

Personally I have come to regard this verdict as being at least li'l bit OTT. I reckon Bill Slim was more than capable of building that belief among his soldiers without the costly theatrics of the Chindit expeds, and I don't recall hearing/reading a single non-Chindit private soldier of the period (least of all George MacDonald Fraser) offering such an opinion.
 
#18
In Defeat into Victory Slim mentions Wingate in two incidents which amused me:

"Wingate was, as all good commanders should be, a most determined and persistent fellow, and he had set his heart on expanding his command. When he found the argument failed, he turned to sterner measures. Such had been his romantic success with the Prime Minister that he claimed the right to send him messages direct, with his views and recommendations..., so when Wingate began by saying that , while he held a personal loyalty to me, there was a loyalty above that to an immediate commander... With the greatest regret he felt that this was such an occasion, and he must, whatever the consequences to me, so report to the Prime Minister. I pushed a signal pad across my desk to him, and told him to go and write his message... that was the last I heard about [it]" pp 218-219

and

When Wingate suggested he may not accept an order, Slim gave him an unsigned copy of the order and told him to sleep on it and come back the next day to receive the signed order: "I told him I had never had a subordinate officer refuse an order, but if one did, I knew what to do..." [next day] "as soon as Wingate was seated in the chair on the other side of my desk, I passed the signed order across to him and , with a slightly wry smile, he accepted it without comment" p220.
 
#19
I think the best death bed request should be " Bury me among Soldiers, the only Honest people in the world, they don't pretend to be anything other than what they are".
If I have the strength of mind to come out with cringeworthy Facebook status shit like that, my death bed request will be "find me a cure".
 
#20
Wasn't Wingate one of the earlier exponents of 'Naked Bar'?

He had a reputation of wandering around stark bollock naked munching on a raw onion.

In fact, a typical Gunner officer.
 

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