OPTAG ROE Training

Discussion in 'The Training Wing' started by SO3Paperclips, Mar 3, 2006.

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  1. Could someone of importance please grip OPTAG's ROE training. I refer in particular to the ludicrous examples,

    Can you shoot someone who is throwing a grenade?

    Can you shoot someone who is firing and manoeuvring?

    If only spent less time on this and more time on PW handling. Has anyone ever been convicted for shooting an armed man?
  2. Well rumour control has the common held belief that using your weapon in anything other than a cimic house scenario means your guilty .Guess they have to reassure the blokes .Had someone bloke reckon he couldn't fire from top cover as it wasen't an aimed shot 8O .
  3. Just remember that if you feel your life or others is at impending risk or danger then to shoot has to be a resonable and justified action in a court of law. You are innocent until proven guilty so the prosecution have to prove you acted un justly. JSP 385 rules apply just.

    In both caes you mention you should be justified in firing so long as something is coming in your direction or iminantly abut too!

    Personally if some tawt is going to kill me I shoot first and ask questions later. That said i was shot at twice on Telic in the past and never returned as i could not clearerly identify who fired the shots at me - every bugger there was carrying a gun - so there can be complications! So don't listen to me cannot even follow my own advice, just lucky they missed!

    Not much help I know but each situation is different and judged on its own merits - if you are there its your call - self prservation is key - look after yourself mate

    Take care

  4. Can you shoot someone who is throwing a grenade? I assume that you are refering to the old Northern Ireland problem of when someone has thrown a grenade and is no longer an immediate threat, can you shoot them? The answer being no unless 3 criteria were met;
    1. Casualties have been taken
    2. The attacker fails to adher to calls to stop
    3. The attacker is making his escape and there is no other way to make an arrest

    These are difficult and important questions as the situation could go from can shoot, can't shoot, can shoot, can't shoot within the space of a few seconds. That is why the question is posed.

    Can you shoot someone who is firing and manoeuvring? This is a deceptive question, very relevant to ops today. The question makes it sound as if someone were fire and manoevering towards you. Clearly that would be fine, however if someone fires at you and then begins to run away, can you shoot? He is no longer posing a threat to you and therefore under ROE you cannot. However if you genuinely believe that he is manouevering in order to take up a position to fire at you again then he would be a legitimate target. In effect meaning you could shoot him in the back.

    These are all very relevant and important questions. That is why they are posed. Having said that, more time spent on PW Handling would clearly be an asset too!
  5. Lord Wentworth, are you serious? I know the OPTAG cant.. I have been on 4 pre-deployment garbage courses in 2 years. My point is that they are both b*llocks. I'll grant you that the first is of relevence in NI, but Iraq? (By the way - the casualties caused is not relevant - the old ROE's were illegal).

    RMP WO2's spend hours confusing young soldiers that they cannot shoot an armed man who is running away from them. We all know this is cr*p. The soldiers then consign all legal advice given to them by RMP/ALS etc into a mental rubbish bin.

    All credit (although I am not sure I'd have said it) to an Inf CO who stood up and told the instructor to shut up, shoot first and ask questions later, and that he, the CO, would take it on the chin.
  6. DPM

    DPM Old-Salt

    I think that this thread is on dangerous ground. Point 3 above, for example, looks very dodgy to me under certain circumstances as the danger has passed unless you can prove that he intends to reoffend (NI for example). That aside (and you could debate it for weeks getting nowhere), the legal environment that a soldier works under with the white card can be seriously enhanced under the MOU signed prior to deployment. Look at Afghanistan for example - we work under the white card in principle but, without going in to too much detail, also have powers well in excess of it.

    A bloke from TELIC tried to justify an order to his platoon along the lines of 'we're at war, the white card doesn't count'. Clearly this is bo!!ocks. We deployed using the white card, but had special dispensations/freedoms/constraints for warfighting that were disseminated (down some chains of command better than others) under the MOU.

    My point is that you will find it very hard to discuss this topic, and indeed it may be dangerous to do so using sweeping statements depending on the audience and their reaction to it.

    RoE is a CoC responsibility, and theatre specific - better that we leave it to OPTAG and individual soldiers' commanders.
  7. Stick to what you're taught, then when it goes Pete Tong, you'll have at least one leg to stand on (hopefully). If your actions deviate from what you're taught, as long as YOU can justify it, then you're on far safer ground than using the excuse of 'some one from ARRSE said it was ok'

    The other thing is, make sure all your theatre specific ROE's are either written down, or you recieve them as a group.
  8. This is not cr*p.

    Those soldiers who consign this advice to the "mental rubbish bin" will only have themselves to blame when they face a charge for murder.
  9. Don't agree with sweeping comments as ROE is very subjective, but the way I see it is that if you honestly feel your life (or muckers life) is in danger jail is better than a coffin. If you do end up charged for murder they have to prove that you intended to kill him without due worry of self defence.
  10. The problem in iraq is their is loads of people with guns so just cos he has an ak you cant slot him .First trip in a snatch .Chap steps out of the shadows ak in lowpoint shemag on face as i went to fire he waved (must have been copper or something ) :? that could have been tricky as I genuinely thought he was a threat till he waved . guess nowadays locals arent as friendly .
  11. Woody

    Had that on telic 2 one of the lads from my room was on top cover & somebody took a pot shot at them so he fire 2 rounds in the direction of the guy & nothing was heard from him after it, but on return the packet commander a full screw & the top cover got a right bollocking for it

    crap hey
  12. In the situation alluded to earlier, if you shoot at a person who is running away, and as a result of the bullet that hits them, they die, then you will be charged and convicted of murder.

    Where in that course of events could you possibly cite self defence?
  13. i would guess if he was doing a fighting retreat, pepper potting away from you with his opo, he would be running to his next firing point, therefore i would still assume a threat and take action against him unless i had been ordered not to including RoE. Posses a question though as would there be any evidence to back you up other than witnesses?

    Personally i would rather spend life in jail than be dead, and with the way things are you would probably just end up tagged

  14. I also note that some signal regiments are running their own Optag with instrs who know naff all about what they are talking about.
  15. In that he is retreating to carry out another attack or reorging to re-attack or that he was posing a danger to the troops/locals on the roue of his escape, self defence doesn't just mean yourself.