Operation Market Garden......Mission Impossible?

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
Those are fair points. I suppose one could ask, did the wars advance the cause of Europe and the UK, including Russia, as a whole? Possibly not but, as you say, it is hard to see how they could have been avoided.
Hey, it's given us the EU who've kept the peace in Europe for the last 74 years! ;-)
 
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joey88

Old-Salt
I wonder how things would have turned out if Captain Carrington (Later Lord Carrington), with his tanks, had ignored his order to wait for the infantry when he had taken the Nijmegan bridge and instead carried on to the north to relieve the British Paras who were only 11 miles away at Arnhem.
There is an article on this subject in this months Britain at war magazine. It suggests that some opinions blame Lord Carrington for having a large part of the failure of OMG because of his failure to advance after the bridge was taken after the Waal crossing by US 82 airborne.
The article defends Lord Carrington decision.
It states that he initially only had four tanks, two of which were damaged. He had no infantry (as we know), he had no real idea of what was ahead, but when you consider how much opposition they had already faced it was reasonable to assume that he would face stern resistance on the road ahead with little chance of covering eleven miles to make any difference to the eventual outcome.
One of the fierce critics of Carrington was then Captain Thomas Moffatt Burrris of 82nd Airborne. He accused Carrington of cowardice and in an interview stated that he threatened to shoot him if he did not advance. You could understand the anger of Burris after how many men had been lost on the Waal crossing and his blood was up, but how much of this was exaggerated over time we will never know.
The article is worth a read as there is much more detail than I have explained here.
It is one of those moments from the film that is taken as fact for the purpose of drama.
 
Same with the Russians.

They overwhelmed with numbers.
Not completely true - from 1943 onwards Soviet operational art was some of the finest of the war. They were however, prepared to accept heavy casualties in the break-in battles.

For an excellent contrast in Western and Soviet operational art at the end of WW2, I'd strongly recommend historian Charles Dick's two volume work Victory into Stalemate (the Allies) and Defeat to Victory (the Soviets).

Particularly relevant to this thread is Dick's detailed description (Victory into Stalemate) of the contemporary set of battles to Market Garden, being waged in Alsace and south of the Ruhr by the US Army - it makes clear that the Americans were going no further on any Southern axis than Monty could achieve in the north and for many of the same reasons.
 

joey88

Old-Salt
Slightly off thread, but for anyone who is interested. There is a live stream on YouTube of today's events at Ginkel Heath.
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
Slightly off thread, but for anyone who is interested. There is a live stream on YouTube of today's events at Ginkel Heath.
I stuck it on. A C-47 went round. Second pass, it started spewing parachutes. And YouTube threw me up an advert. Thanks YouTube.
 
I stuck it on. A C-47 went round. Second pass, it started spewing parachutes. And YouTube threw me up an advert. Thanks YouTube.
Poignant stuff - as it happens, Saltby airfield is only a few minutes walk from my place - it was from there that Frost's Battalion and the Poles flew to Arnhem, very little changed since (now home to a gliding club).

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Quite moving to think that these tranquil rural views were that last of England that many of those men were to see...
 
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During the fight for Onderlangs, this British Para’s smock caught the fence when he was hit and he died in this position. Operation Market Garden, Arnhem, September 19, 1944.
 
ISTBC but I believe it is the MoH, presented by the President on behalf of Congress, so often referred to as the CMoH, mistakenly.
I stand corrected. Seems that CMoH is the unofficial title. Every day a school day!
 
Any idea what models of Sherman? M4, M4A2 diesel. M4A4 ?

theoretically all version had operational road range of at least 100 miles to a full tank. M4A4 had the shortest range @ 100Miles

M4A2 @ 150miles
M4 @ 120Miles
Guards Armoured had mostly Sherman V's I think, so M4A4's..
Thanks Gents.
So assuming no replen he more than 10% of his max range to go in addition to any idling and any combat up to that point (or after)......

....buuuut there must have been a replen plan, musn't there?
 
One of the fierce critics of Carrington was then Captain Thomas Moffatt Burris of 82nd Airborne. He accused Carrington of cowardice and in an interview stated that he threatened to shoot him if he did not advance. You could understand the anger of Burris after how many men had been lost on the Waal crossing and his blood was up, but how much of this was exaggerated over time we will never know.
He was 82nd (3/504PIR) and they had a very agressive manner, so not really unexpected that after suffering so many casualties taking the bridge that he would be furious at the tanks stopping. Most infantry bods had little idea how vulnerable tanks were or how much they need infantry support to work well
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
You were the one claiming a Jewish plot against Monty by Hollywood producers, directors, writiers due to them being Jews. All very blackshirt like, Mr Mosely. Even in this post I am responding to you continue with the Anti Semitic comments and claim YOU know what Jews think

A reasonable person would not dare say with absolute authority what a group of people think because pf your personal biases
I'll rephrase it for you.

Anyone who was a Zionist and/or subscribed to the chosen people belief that God had given the Promised Land to the Jews, might take exception to Montgomery's role in trying to control Jewish immigration from post-war Europe. That might include most Jews, although not all (Norman Finkelstein comes to mind); as a sweeping generalisation, it's more rational than the assumption that I must be a shit-pig Nazi for thinking most Jews might not approve of Monty.

My point remains the same, I suspect many of your countrymen would have a low opinion of Montgomery and believe he was an incompetent commander, whereas he seems to have been very competent, possibly obsessive although slightly eccentric.

There's a lot of that to be found amongst many who have achieved exceptional competence in their profession by excluding normal social activities.

 

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