OPEN SOURCE - Shankill Butchers

#41
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Why on earth would you want to write a script about the Shankill Butchers anyway? There have already been two films made about that depressing episode and both of them were shit. It's one of those subjects which attracts weirdos, introverted sad acts who read books about Dennis Nilsen and listen to shit industrial music.
Thanks for the feedback; you're the first person to criticise Dillon's which is interesting.

The smart-arse answer is £££ - there was a 4 x 60' sold to BBCNI last year but they decided not to go ahead after paying for it; not uncommon with a change in personnel. That grated with me since I'd mentioned I was looking at it to the screenwriter previously - the treacherous c%^t.

It's also something that has stuck in my mind. It was AFAIK the most sustained campaign of pure evil that took place in NI over the years.

The big thing that puts me off is that there's only one series in it, I think, which is a biggy.
 
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#42
Thanks for the feedback; you're the first person to criticise Dillon's which is interesting.

The smart-arse answer is £££ - there was a 4 x 60' sold to BBCNI last year but they decided not to go ahead after paying for it; not uncommon with a change in personnel. That grated with me since I'd mentioned I was looking at it to the screenwriter previously - the treacherous c%^t.

It's also something that has stuck in my mind. It was AFAIK the most sustained campaign of pure evil that took place in NI over the years.

The big thing that puts me off is that there's only one series in it, I think, which is a biggy.
To be fair I'd say the Provo's bomb attacks on Belfast etc was the most sustained campaign of pure evil during the troubles.

As has been said alot of the book is shit. The Dirty War was his best book.
 
#43
To be fair I'd say the Provo's bomb attacks on Belfast etc was the most sustained campaign of pure evil during the troubles.

.
This is most definately true. However the provos and stickies had proven their control of evil with countless murders of innocent people including those who did not toe the line in their own areas. The largely protestant community tried to retain a sense of dignity to an extent that was until the butcher gang came along. They sank to the same level as the rest and have not been back up since.
 
#44
I'm working through Dillon's book at the moment but thanks for the pointer. Watching Nolan interviewing JM on Youtube I do wonder why he denied knowing the identity of the gang; it would have been better all round if he'd just said that he knew but couldn't prove it.

@184461 Thanks for the links - they give a nice background.
When someone uses user 184461 for reference advice, then you know user JCC is another conspirawibbleloon?
The fact that user 184461 believes any old shit he can find on the interweb means anything it mentions should be disregarded straight away.

I can see why people think JCC may be a reincarnation of No4 mk1 or whatever that loons name was!
 
#46
@British_And_Proud and @Tytus_Barnowl - I think what throws me is the intimacy of the Butchers. We can all understand a pilot dropping bombs and it's not such a big step from there to placing car bombs but to work over a helpless person with a knife for no reason other than the pleasure it gives you?

But with several comments wrt the accuracy of Dillon's book, especially @Dirtyneck's, I'm having second thoughts. It's probably better, or easier, to stick to pure fiction than try to base it on real events; things are still too raw.
 
#47
This is most definately true. However the provos and stickies had proven their control of evil with countless murders of innocent people including those who did not toe the line in their own areas. The largely protestant community tried to retain a sense of dignity to an extent that was until the butcher gang came along. They sank to the same level as the rest and have not been back up since.
The UDA had their own vicious bastards around that time in Albert Baker and Davey Payne.

Alot of the UDA attacks in the early 70's were carried out with knives. I dunno if it was a case of a lack of access to guns.
 
#48
The UDA had their own vicious bastards around that time in Albert Baker and Davey Payne.

Alot of the UDA attacks in the early 70's were carried out with knives. I dunno if it was a case of a lack of access to guns.
This is what I always point out when people - May Blood* for example - make the claim that everyone on the Shankill, including the RUC, knew the identities of the Butchers. Almost all of the torture murders up until then had been carried out by the UDA or (on a no-claim basis) PIRA. If you were making a list of suspects at the time it would be the likes of Davy Payne or others in west or north Belfast UDA heading it up.


*How she would know this I don't fathom, given that she was living in Springmartin at the time and grew up in Donegall Pass!
 
#49
@Dirtyneck - that's very interesting. You seem to suggest that not all the murders, or at least some of the early ones, that Dillon lays at Lennies's door may have been carried out by others esp. early UDA?

Davy Payne was UVF at the start before moving into the UDA - might he have planted the seeds there before going?
 
#50
You believe what you want, I know what I know.
Pretty well anyone can say that, all it proves is that you believe that you know things, which really just means you've decided what you want to believe and you won't reassess your position.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#51
This is what I always point out when people - May Blood* for example - make the claim that everyone on the Shankill, including the RUC, knew the identities of the Butchers. Almost all of the torture murders up until then had been carried out by the UDA or (on a no-claim basis) PIRA. If you were making a list of suspects at the time it would be the likes of Davy Payne or others in west or north Belfast UDA heading it up.


*How she would know this I don't fathom, given that she was living in Springmartin at the time and grew up in Donegall Pass!
It’s a small world. Geography wouldn’t have been important, given the circle she moved in, women talk to women.
 
#52
@Dirtyneck - that's very interesting. You seem to suggest that not all the murders, or at least some of the early ones, that Dillon lays at Lennies's door may have been carried out by others esp. early UDA?

Davy Payne was UVF at the start before moving into the UDA - might he have planted the seeds there before going?
That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm pointing out that by the time Murphy and the Butchers started the cut-throat killings there had been 3-4 years of UDA torture courts, romper killings, and occasional knife murders. They were well known for this.

I don't think Payne's being in the early UVF had anything to do with Murphy's choice of weapon.
 
#53
@Dirtyneck - thanks for the response. I picked up that knife killings were common but the way you describe them would be better described as "not unknown"?

You don't think Payne's and the Murphy clan's membership of the UVF at the same time could have had any influence in LM's future habits?
 
#55
@Dirtyneck - thanks for the response. I picked up that knife killings were common but the way you describe them would be better described as "not unknown"?

You don't think Payne's and the Murphy clan's membership of the UVF at the same time could have had any influence in LM's future habits?
Given the way the UVF was in the early days it's more likely that one was totally unaware of the other. I've known sons who joined the UVF in those days only to find their father/brother/both were already in it. I think Murphy was enough of a piece of work to begin with, and that further training was not required.
 
#56
We're does the knowledge that Davey Payne was in the UVF come from?

At that time the UVF was still recruiting selectively and Tyndale was a UDA stronghold.
I very much doubt that Davey Payne would have rose to the rank of Brigadier of the UDA had he been a Volunteer in the UVF.
 
#57
Payne was one of the original members of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) when it was formed from Ulster loyalist vigilante groups in September 1971. These groups, including the Woodvale Defence Association (WDA) and Shankill Defence Association (SDA), had sprung up following the outbreak in the late 1960s of the violent politico-religious conflict known as the Troubles. Payne, who had been a supporter of Gusty Spence and had rioted in 1966 following Spence's arrest, had been a member of both the Ulster Volunteer Force and Tara but took his entire "team" over to the UDA upon that organisation's foundation.[3]

Davy Payne - Wikipedia
 
#58
Payne was one of the original members of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) when it was formed from Ulster loyalist vigilante groups in September 1971. These groups, including the Woodvale Defence Association (WDA) and Shankill Defence Association (SDA), had sprung up following the outbreak in the late 1960s of the violent politico-religious conflict known as the Troubles. Payne, who had been a supporter of Gusty Spence and had rioted in 1966 following Spence's arrest, had been a member of both the Ulster Volunteer Force and Tara but took his entire "team" over to the UDA upon that organisation's foundation.[3]

Davy Payne - Wikipedia
As it's Wiki, I'll take it with a pinch of salt.
 
#60
You mean Murphy wasn’t really a Major?[/
Genuinely haven't a clue what rank he held bar 'Volunteer'. I do realise your comment is tongue in cheek
 
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