OPEN SOURCE - Shankill Butchers

#22
Any thoughts/comments/stories are welcome ?
Beware of bullshit such as that expounded by @184461, of which you'll see a great deal if you wander through the websites of those who have personal interest in the subject. There are credible sources out there.
 
#23
@Whiskybreath there are plenty of axes still being ground but as @ches points out the story sometimes does require stretching things. A straightforward sequence of murders won't work - side stories and personal stories will be needed and that's where it'll have to morph into pure fiction.
 
#24
@Whiskybreath there are plenty of axes still being ground but as @ches points out the story sometimes does require stretching things. A straightforward sequence of murders won't work - side stories and personal stories will be needed and that's where it'll have to morph into pure fiction.
There were plenty of punishment beatings carried out which were known about locally but don't appear to be well or widely documented. Probably anything you make up on these lines would not be too far from some truth.
 
#26
That's an understandable comment if you don't know.
Many on here did Maximise, Ajax, Hawker and other projects and will know the same.
I bet I did more time there than you ever did and I was involved in that side of things. That the Army had a good grasp of touts in PIRA/INLA/Loyalists didn't mean they were in a position to prevent attacks being carried out. Did some murky stuff happen? Probably - it was Big Boys Games Big Boys Rules. But the comments on the UVF are nonsense.
 
#27
@Whiskybreath certainly warning signs. One device I'm looking at for the POV of getting facts across to an uneducated audience is introducing someone on attachment from, say, Lancs constabulary CID. Such a person may or may not have been present but as a tool to allow expository dialogue, think Morse to Lewis, I think he, or she, will be needed.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#28
1. Take the things some people here tell you with a pinch of salt - in the case of 184461, about 500g of sodium hypochlorite should do.
2. Drives a Jag? Are you trying to allude to Morse or The Sweeney? That seems like quite a lazy way of caricaturing a person.
3. Jazz, cocaine, oh puhleeze!
4. A mate of mine, now in his mid 30s, grew up in the area and he and his friends were shit-scared of the Butchers. He tells a tale of running from them and hiding under a car after he and his friends had been up to no good.


4 He must started being a wee shite at a very early age , the butchers ran from the mid 70s to early 80s
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#30
Yeah, I'm not sure if he's conflated the Butchers with the UVF/PAF who filled the void.
Still and with all that. I’d hate to be a kid on the wrong side of that lot, whatever they call themselves. Should never have been released. That was my one major problem with the GFA.

The one good thing being many of them coming to bad ends. That’s protagonists on both sides. Being unable to come to terms of the end of the troubles and suffering mentally and physically. Couldn’t happen to enough of them.
 
#31
Still and with all that. I’d hate to be a kid on the wrong side of that lot …
For all that, he and his two best mates, who I believe were with him hiding under the car, all joined up but in different services. The three of them seem to be doing very well.
 
#33
1. Take the things some people here tell you with a pinch of salt - in the case of 184461, about 500g of sodium hypochlorite should do.
2. Drives a Jag? Are you trying to allude to Morse or The Sweeney? That seems like quite a lazy way of caricaturing a person.
3. Jazz, cocaine, oh puhleeze!
4. A mate of mine, now in his mid 30s, grew up in the area and he and his friends were shit-scared of the Butchers. He tells a tale of running from them and hiding under a car after he and his friends had been up to no good.
35 yrs ago the butchers were in jail and Murphy was dead so your mate was telling porkies
 
#34
35 yrs ago the butchers were in jail and Murphy was dead so your mate was telling porkies
Like I said, he was probably conflating the Butchers with the people who filled the void. I don't expect a young child to have been able to differentiate between the various groups that well.
 
#36
@Joe_Private

One horrible thing I came across was that Basher used to like wearing golf shoes when rompering. One young lad reported a crowd offering him a lift but when he noticed/heard the shoes he ran for his life.
The term "rompering" was exclusive to the uda. It was named after a 60s childrens tv programme called Romper Room. The uda adopted the phrase calling its pathetic so called "courts martial" taking place in a "romper room" which in reality was a secluded sound proof chamber where the victim could be tortured and forced to sign a confession document before being taken out and shot. The uvf was not quite so structured , they just decided who was going to be shot , enticed them into some bar and did the business in front of everyone. They did not waste time with rompering as was known after all killing was top of the adgenda.
 
#37
Basher could be a bit smarmy in his manner when we had him at the maze a bit of the uriah heap about him he eventually got the religion fat lot of good it done him , Billy Moore on the other hand was an out and out nut-job and could never in a thousand years be liked,gladly the big chest clutcher got him in the end.
 
#38
Use the power at your fingertips- search-engine research, mate.
OSI is now huge although some things still aren't seeng the light of day.

The UDA was set up on the back of BOX 500.
I've seen 1st hand int a long time ago that didn't exactly say those words but reading in between the lines that's exactly what was being said.

UDA was an extremely violent anti-Catholic gang to push for a catholic backlash- remember the Loyalists killed more than the Republicans too.
Absolute Bollix

A little known and seldom repeated inconvenient fact.
Again Bollix.

We see the same tactics at work still today: divide and conquer.

You can either dismiss or take notice of these links, depending on what suits your taste but you mentioned the missing files and who would be able to make things go walk about?

Lest we Forget – Security Forces Created Shankill UDA | Relatives for Justice
And about time too
‘An Phobcrapt’ – The MI5/UDA Black Propaganda Sheet
UK accused of helping to supply arms for Northern Ireland loyalist killings
McGuinness calls on Britain to open files on Shankill bombing
Links to IRA propoganda machines..ok will.

Allegations that British security forces colluded with paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland on a vast scale leading directly to the deaths of hundreds of people must be fully investigated, Amnesty International has said.
In the BBC Panorama documentary, Britain's Secret Terror Deals, to be screened on Thursday, investigative reporter Darragh MacIntyre investigates allegations that the state colluded with paramilitary killers and covered up their crimes.


MacIntyre meets the families who have been fighting for decades to uncover the government's darkest secrets and confronts some of those believed to be complicit.

The murder of Sunday World reporter Martin O’Hagan in 2001 and two massacres, at Sean Graham bookmaker’s in 1992 where five people died, and the killings of nine Protestant men returning from work in Kingsmill village in 1976, are among the cases where state and paramilitary collusion is alleged to have been covered up.


Panorama also revealed an assault rifle used in the Sean Graham massacre in 1992, which police said had been disposed of, ended up on display in the Imperial War Museum.

The weapon was used in the UDA killing of five Catholics in a betting shop on the Lower Ormeau Road in Belfast. The police ombudsman has confirmed that the rifle has now removed from the museum for forensic examination. It is linked to other UDA murders during the Troubles.
Britain's Secret Terror Deals: 'Truly disturbing' BBC Panorama allegations of collusion must be fully investigated, says Amnesty International - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

NI was just a convenient game for Whitehall and nothing more.
Lots of servicemen and civvies died for that game to continue.

Happy digging.
Please explain Agent Trotsky how the Shankill Butchers was an active service unit of the Ulster Defense Association..

I've all day don't worry.
 
#39
If you believe any of the fantasy waffle in those links I seriously doubt you have ever even been to NI, never mind been involved in any of the operations you linked to in your other post.
He seems to think that Lenny Murphy was a Womble ffs. You'd think the Kremlin at least had Google.
 
#40
I'm working through Dillon's book at the moment but thanks for the pointer. Watching Nolan interviewing JM on Youtube I do wonder why he denied knowing the identity of the gang; it would have been better all round if he'd just said that he knew but couldn't prove it.

@184461 Thanks for the links - they give a nice background.
Dillon's book on the Butchers is, in a word, cobblers. He had privileged access to RUC files on the case but no one on the Shankill would talk to him, and he seems instead to have filled in the blanks in a rather creative fashion. Not that I would accuse him of making parts of it up...

His psych profile of Murphy is basically invented. Murphy isn't a common name on the road but there are a few dotted around, and in "expatriate" areas like Ballysillan, Glencairn, Bangor, etc. Murphy had no Catholic ancestry anyway, and the father Dillon says was a henpecked recluse, held to be a Catholic in loyalist gossip, was actually in the UVF as well. His paternal grandfather was even a Grand Master the Orange Order.

Dillon wrote that Murphy went to Boys' Model and quotes from interviews carried out with schoolfriends from there. Quite an achievement given that he actually went to Ballygomartin High.

Dillon also claims he was told by someone in "military intelligence" that John McKeague had carried out the murder of a 10 year old boy in 1973. That too would be some achievement, as McKeague was in jail serving a sentence for robbery that year.

Those are just a few howlers. I'm always dubious of authors who make revelatory claims based on material supplied by anonymous security sources, and knowing a fair amount about the case which isn't in the public domain I'd steer well clear of that particular book. I wouldn't exactly trust any information proffered by Relative for Justice either, the "human rights" group founded by that noted South Armagh humanitarian PJ Caraher.

The story of Basher's golf shoes sounds like bullshit frankly. If you hang about in certain pubs for long enough you'll discover that just about every Catholic man from the Falls/Millfield area over the age of 50 has a tale about how Lenny Murphy jumped out of a black taxi one night and threw tomahawks at his head, and how he only just managed to escape by running down an entry.

Why on earth would you want to write a script about the Shankill Butchers anyway? There have already been two films made about that depressing episode and both of them were shit. It's one of those subjects which attracts weirdos, introverted sad acts who read books about Dennis Nilsen and listen to shit industrial music.
 

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