OPEN SOURCE - Shankill Butchers

#1
I'm doing some research for a script on the Shankill Butchers. The big elephants I see so far are: the murder(s) in the Crum and the missing files; the fact that Jimmy Nesbitt tells us that he didn't have names when it was not uncommon knowledge; and the alleged ability of the gang to move about in the area without getting tugged.

Any thoughts/comments/stories are welcome ?
 
#2
Use the power at your fingertips- search-engine research, mate.
OSI is now huge although some things still aren't seeng the light of day.

The UDA was set up on the back of BOX 500.
I've seen 1st hand int a long time ago that didn't exactly say those words but reading in between the lines that's exactly what was being said.

UDA was an extremely violent anti-Catholic gang to push for a catholic backlash- remember the Loyalists killed more than the Republicans too.
A little known and seldom repeated inconvenient fact.

We see the same tactics at work still today: divide and conquer.

You can either dismiss or take notice of these links, depending on what suits your taste but you mentioned the missing files and who would be able to make things go walk about?

Lest we Forget – Security Forces Created Shankill UDA | Relatives for Justice
And about time too
‘An Phobcrapt’ – The MI5/UDA Black Propaganda Sheet
UK accused of helping to supply arms for Northern Ireland loyalist killings
McGuinness calls on Britain to open files on Shankill bombing

Allegations that British security forces colluded with paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland on a vast scale leading directly to the deaths of hundreds of people must be fully investigated, Amnesty International has said.
In the BBC Panorama documentary, Britain's Secret Terror Deals, to be screened on Thursday, investigative reporter Darragh MacIntyre investigates allegations that the state colluded with paramilitary killers and covered up their crimes.


MacIntyre meets the families who have been fighting for decades to uncover the government's darkest secrets and confronts some of those believed to be complicit.

The murder of Sunday World reporter Martin O’Hagan in 2001 and two massacres, at Sean Graham bookmaker’s in 1992 where five people died, and the killings of nine Protestant men returning from work in Kingsmill village in 1976, are among the cases where state and paramilitary collusion is alleged to have been covered up.

Panorama also revealed an assault rifle used in the Sean Graham massacre in 1992, which police said had been disposed of, ended up on display in the Imperial War Museum.

The weapon was used in the UDA killing of five Catholics in a betting shop on the Lower Ormeau Road in Belfast. The police ombudsman has confirmed that the rifle has now removed from the museum for forensic examination. It is linked to other UDA murders during the Troubles.
Britain's Secret Terror Deals: 'Truly disturbing' BBC Panorama allegations of collusion must be fully investigated, says Amnesty International - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

NI was just a convenient game for Whitehall and nothing more.
Lots of servicemen and civvies died for that game to continue.

Happy digging.
 
#3
Good post with lots of information as to why I'm completely wrong in knowing that the UK gov knew all about what was going on and let it happen.
Mo Mowlam often let the cat out of the bag, after a few too many drinks, back in the day but you'd know that as you were there too.
UI
If you think so @No.4 Mk.1

How’s the Twitter campaign going Anthony? Still a figure of fun?
 
#4
I'm doing some research for a script on the Shankill Butchers. The big elephants I see so far are: the murder(s) in the Crum and the missing files; the fact that Jimmy Nesbitt tells us that he didn't have names when it was not uncommon knowledge; and the alleged ability of the gang to move about in the area without getting tugged.

Any thoughts/comments/stories are welcome ?
The leader of the gang was in the so called uvf of the day. Absolutely fckuall to do with the uda as advised by an earlier post. I have the book on the shankill butchers which is interesting reading. There is also a youtube report out upon it which reflects the attitudes of the people at the time. Essentially the leader a certain Lenny Murphy hated catholics. It was said that having a name like Murphy he was determined to destroy the catholic from within himself. To answer th OPs question, the murders in the Crum were carried out by Murphy who had several contacts within the prison service which I know back then were full of scummy paramilitaries and sex offenders. When the murder was carried out the Governer of the prison (a former Army Major) called in the RUC but the detectives who attended pretty well knew they would not have enough evidence and certainly no viable witnesses so they loosely interviewed a few officers,some other staff and let it lie. After all another dead prisoner is no great loss. James Nesbitt knew pretty well that Murphy was in the murder gang , probably the leader but the thing was this was a murder GANG so pulling just one out would have little effect never more so proven than when murphy was arrested on a firearms charge whilst he was under sentence the murders increased. As for moving around the area , well one of them drove a black taxi which were known to have protection from the paramilitaries. When the owner of said taxi was finally arrested he panicked and started giving out snippets of several murders that had also happened upon which he was on the fringes as merely a driver but after 2 days he cracked and admitted the full scale of the murders he was involved in. The CID murder squad Jim Nesbitt headed up was !0 men strong when you consider that the Yorkshire ripper of the same era had a force 10 times that looking into a single offender then it has to be said that Nesbitt did a pretty good job in the end.
As for the Spnukdog who earlier posted totally irrelevant leads about paramilitaries collusion you are welcome to scku his dcki for going on abut sinn fein's greatest losing battle into the unknown.
 
#5
Use the power at your fingertips- search-engine research, mate.
OSI is now huge although some things still aren't seeng the light of day.

The UDA was set up on the back of BOX 500.
I've seen 1st hand int a long time ago that didn't exactly say those words but reading in between the lines that's exactly what was being said.

UDA was an extremely violent anti-Catholic gang to push for a catholic backlash- remember the Loyalists killed more than the Republicans too.
A little known and seldom repeated inconvenient fact.

We see the same tactics at work still today: divide and conquer.

You can either dismiss or take notice of these links, depending on what suits your taste but you mentioned the missing files and who would be able to make things go walk about?

Lest we Forget – Security Forces Created Shankill UDA | Relatives for Justice
And about time too
‘An Phobcrapt’ – The MI5/UDA Black Propaganda Sheet
UK accused of helping to supply arms for Northern Ireland loyalist killings
McGuinness calls on Britain to open files on Shankill bombing

Allegations that British security forces colluded with paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland on a vast scale leading directly to the deaths of hundreds of people must be fully investigated, Amnesty International has said.
In the BBC Panorama documentary, Britain's Secret Terror Deals, to be screened on Thursday, investigative reporter Darragh MacIntyre investigates allegations that the state colluded with paramilitary killers and covered up their crimes.


MacIntyre meets the families who have been fighting for decades to uncover the government's darkest secrets and confronts some of those believed to be complicit.

The murder of Sunday World reporter Martin O’Hagan in 2001 and two massacres, at Sean Graham bookmaker’s in 1992 where five people died, and the killings of nine Protestant men returning from work in Kingsmill village in 1976, are among the cases where state and paramilitary collusion is alleged to have been covered up.

Panorama also revealed an assault rifle used in the Sean Graham massacre in 1992, which police said had been disposed of, ended up on display in the Imperial War Museum.

The weapon was used in the UDA killing of five Catholics in a betting shop on the Lower Ormeau Road in Belfast. The police ombudsman has confirmed that the rifle has now removed from the museum for forensic examination. It is linked to other UDA murders during the Troubles.
Britain's Secret Terror Deals: 'Truly disturbing' BBC Panorama allegations of collusion must be fully investigated, says Amnesty International - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

NI was just a convenient game for Whitehall and nothing more.
Lots of servicemen and civvies died for that game to continue.

Happy digging.
Barking mad.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#7
Use the power at your fingertips- search-engine research, mate.
OSI is now huge although some things still aren't seeng the light of day.

The UDA was set up on the back of BOX 500.
I've seen 1st hand int a long time ago that didn't exactly say those words but reading in between the lines that's exactly what was being said.

UDA was an extremely violent anti-Catholic gang to push for a catholic backlash- remember the Loyalists killed more than the Republicans too.
A little known and seldom repeated inconvenient fact.

We see the same tactics at work still today: divide and conquer.

You can either dismiss or take notice of these links, depending on what suits your taste but you mentioned the missing files and who would be able to make things go walk about?

Lest we Forget – Security Forces Created Shankill UDA | Relatives for Justice
And about time too
‘An Phobcrapt’ – The MI5/UDA Black Propaganda Sheet
UK accused of helping to supply arms for Northern Ireland loyalist killings
McGuinness calls on Britain to open files on Shankill bombing

Allegations that British security forces colluded with paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland on a vast scale leading directly to the deaths of hundreds of people must be fully investigated, Amnesty International has said.
In the BBC Panorama documentary, Britain's Secret Terror Deals, to be screened on Thursday, investigative reporter Darragh MacIntyre investigates allegations that the state colluded with paramilitary killers and covered up their crimes.


MacIntyre meets the families who have been fighting for decades to uncover the government's darkest secrets and confronts some of those believed to be complicit.

The murder of Sunday World reporter Martin O’Hagan in 2001 and two massacres, at Sean Graham bookmaker’s in 1992 where five people died, and the killings of nine Protestant men returning from work in Kingsmill village in 1976, are among the cases where state and paramilitary collusion is alleged to have been covered up.

Panorama also revealed an assault rifle used in the Sean Graham massacre in 1992, which police said had been disposed of, ended up on display in the Imperial War Museum.

The weapon was used in the UDA killing of five Catholics in a betting shop on the Lower Ormeau Road in Belfast. The police ombudsman has confirmed that the rifle has now removed from the museum for forensic examination. It is linked to other UDA murders during the Troubles.
Britain's Secret Terror Deals: 'Truly disturbing' BBC Panorama allegations of collusion must be fully investigated, says Amnesty International - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

NI was just a convenient game for Whitehall and nothing more.
Lots of servicemen and civvies died for that game to continue.

Happy digging.
Wow did they do 9/11 and the nerve gassings too?
 
#8
.... Nesbitt knew pretty well that Murphy was in the murder gang ...
I'm working through Dillon's book at the moment but thanks for the pointer. Watching Nolan interviewing JM on Youtube I do wonder why he denied knowing the identity of the gang; it would have been better all round if he'd just said that he knew but couldn't prove it.

@184461 Thanks for the links - they give a nice background.
 
#9
Use the power at your fingertips- search-engine research, mate.
OSI is now huge although some things still aren't seeng the light of day.

The UDA was set up on the back of BOX 500.
I've seen 1st hand int a long time ago that didn't exactly say those words but reading in between the lines that's exactly what was being said.

UDA was an extremely violent anti-Catholic gang to push for a catholic backlash- remember the Loyalists killed more than the Republicans too.
A little known and seldom repeated inconvenient fact.

We see the same tactics at work still today: divide and conquer.

You can either dismiss or take notice of these links, depending on what suits your taste but you mentioned the missing files and who would be able to make things go walk about?

Lest we Forget – Security Forces Created Shankill UDA | Relatives for Justice
And about time too
‘An Phobcrapt’ – The MI5/UDA Black Propaganda Sheet
UK accused of helping to supply arms for Northern Ireland loyalist killings
McGuinness calls on Britain to open files on Shankill bombing

Allegations that British security forces colluded with paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland on a vast scale leading directly to the deaths of hundreds of people must be fully investigated, Amnesty International has said.
In the BBC Panorama documentary, Britain's Secret Terror Deals, to be screened on Thursday, investigative reporter Darragh MacIntyre investigates allegations that the state colluded with paramilitary killers and covered up their crimes.


MacIntyre meets the families who have been fighting for decades to uncover the government's darkest secrets and confronts some of those believed to be complicit.

The murder of Sunday World reporter Martin O’Hagan in 2001 and two massacres, at Sean Graham bookmaker’s in 1992 where five people died, and the killings of nine Protestant men returning from work in Kingsmill village in 1976, are among the cases where state and paramilitary collusion is alleged to have been covered up.

Panorama also revealed an assault rifle used in the Sean Graham massacre in 1992, which police said had been disposed of, ended up on display in the Imperial War Museum.

The weapon was used in the UDA killing of five Catholics in a betting shop on the Lower Ormeau Road in Belfast. The police ombudsman has confirmed that the rifle has now removed from the museum for forensic examination. It is linked to other UDA murders during the Troubles.
Britain's Secret Terror Deals: 'Truly disturbing' BBC Panorama allegations of collusion must be fully investigated, says Amnesty International - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

NI was just a convenient game for Whitehall and nothing more.
Lots of servicemen and civvies died for that game to continue.

Happy digging.
If you believe any of the fantasy waffle in those links I seriously doubt you have ever even been to NI, never mind been involved in any of the operations you linked to in your other post.
 
#10
I'm working through Dillon's book at the moment but thanks for the pointer. Watching Nolan interviewing JM on Youtube I do wonder why he denied knowing the identity of the gang; it would have been better all round if he'd just said that he knew but couldn't prove it.

@184461 Thanks for the links - they give a nice background.
I think personally it was a judgement call, he kew it was a gang murder and he wanted to nail the gang. Admitting in public over 20 years after the event that he pretty well knew it was murphy in a society tending to judge the past with the standards of today would do him no favours. Imagine the headline:
FORMER RUC CHIEF DETECTIVE ADMITS HE KNEW THE IDENTITY OF THE SHANKILL BUTCHERS. "Former RUC detective has admitted to the media that he knew all along who the Shankill butchers were but he wanted to score arrest points in the day so he deliberately let these murders continue blah blah balh balh RUC Colluision blah blah blah blah
In the end he did manage to nail murphy on a lesser charge but that did not appear to save any lives.
 
#11
Found this key for Dillon's book. True or not I don't know:

A William Murphy, brother
B John Murphy, brother
Margaret Murphy nee Gillespie
Heather McFarlane
C David “Spider” McVeigh
D Roy Stewart
E Dessie Balmer ?
F John “Bunter” Graham, UVF
G Chuck Berry
H
I Hugh Casement, UVF
J
K Jim “JJ” Johnston
L Danny Watson
M Thomas Stewart
 
#12
If you believe any of the fantasy waffle in those links I seriously doubt you have ever even been to NI, never mind been involved in any of the operations you linked to in your other post.
You believe what you want, I know what I know.
I've done enough flapping of gums on this subject.

As time goes on in a northerly direction more and more is being DC'd/ leaked/discovered/released through proper investagitive journalism all relative to UK govts' subversive tactics of operation in NI.

Brand new to some and old news to others.
Half of all top IRA men 'worked for security services' - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
The loyalist threat to Northern Ireland | Beatrix Campbell
Eamonn McCann: MI5 has control of most sensitive aspect of policing in North


Thanks for the links - they give a nice background.
Happy hunting, JCC.
 
#13
@Tytus_Barnowl I see what you're saying.

How free were the RUC to move about the area? I know the RUC did beats on the Shankill Road but what was the Army's role there? I get the impression that apart from raids & searches the RUC was able to operate without escorts.
 
#14
Found this key for Dillon's book. True or not I don't know:

A William Murphy, brother
B John Murphy, brother
Margaret Murphy nee Gillespie
Heather McFarlane
C David “Spider” McVeigh
D Roy Stewart
E Dessie Balmer ?
F John “Bunter” Graham, UVF
G Chuck Berry
H
I Hugh Casement, UVF
J
K Jim “JJ” Johnston
L Danny Watson
M Thomas Stewart
If you really want to do the research go to the church records for various parishes on the Shankill road. I managed through research some years ago to fid out some of my Grandfather's family background knowing that he came from Peters hill. His name was Jimmy Johnston which is probably the most common Belfast name out there. There sure as hell aren't may people with the name Murphy in the Shankill road area.
 
#15
@Tytus_Barnowl I see what you're saying.

How free were the RUC to move about the area? I know the RUC did beats on the Shankill Road but what was the Army's role there? I get the impression that apart from raids & searches the RUC was able to operate without escorts.
The RUC had pretty much total freedom, but in an area noted for gangland violence what are the possibilities of gaining accurate intelligence? It was a failure on the RUCs part (hindsight I know) not to request assistance at least from some of the Army's surveillance services. Bear in mind that most of this was befoe the SAS were deployed in NI and then as far as I know most of them went to the border region. Even the so called "community forces" (uda) were too scared to touch these guys.
 
#16
To be honest I'm reluctant to bring either "A" or "B" into the script as I think it would confuse a fairly straight forward storyline. It's fiction so, for example, Nesbitt may be more exotic than he was in real life; maybe drives a Jag and plays in a jazz band to fund his cocaine habit?

Did such things as surveillance services even exist in the early seventies?
 
#17
You believe what you want, I know what I know.
I've done enough flapping of gums on this subject.

As time goes on in a northerly direction more and more is being DC'd/ leaked/discovered/released through proper investagitive journalism all relative to UK govts' subversive tactics of operation in NI.

Brand new to some and old news to others.
Half of all top IRA men 'worked for security services' - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
The loyalist threat to Northern Ireland | Beatrix Campbell
Eamonn McCann: MI5 has control of most sensitive aspect of policing in North



Happy hunting, JCC.
The only thing you know is what the voices in your head tell you, you fantasist.
 
#18
To be honest I'm reluctant to bring either "A" or "B" into the script as I think it would confuse a fairly straight forward storyline. It's fiction so, for example, Nesbitt may be more exotic than he was in real life; maybe drives a Jag and plays in a jazz band to fund his cocaine habit?

Did such things as surveillance services even exist in the early seventies?
In a word Yes. Read Dillons book.
OK Nesbitt drank a fair bit but the drinking power of the RUC was legendary , not too far off the Sweeny in this country.
 
#19
To be honest I'm reluctant to bring either "A" or "B" into the script as I think it would confuse a fairly straight forward storyline. It's fiction so, for example, Nesbitt may be more exotic than he was in real life; maybe drives a Jag and plays in a jazz band to fund his cocaine habit?

Did such things as surveillance services even exist in the early seventies?
1. Take the things some people here tell you with a pinch of salt - in the case of 184461, about 500g of sodium hypochlorite should do.
2. Drives a Jag? Are you trying to allude to Morse or The Sweeney? That seems like quite a lazy way of caricaturing a person.
3. Jazz, cocaine, oh puhleeze!
4. A mate of mine, now in his mid 30s, grew up in the area and he and his friends were shit-scared of the Butchers. He tells a tale of running from them and hiding under a car after he and his friends had been up to no good.
 
#20
@Joe_Private it was slightly tongue in cheek but in these days of diversity in casting I may get him played by a West Indian actor of fluid gender; it would improve the chances of getting the Beeb to commission.

One horrible thing I came across was that Basher used to like wearing golf shoes when rompering. One young lad reported a crowd offering him a lift but when he noticed/heard the shoes he ran for his life.
 

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