Open Carry

#1
Open Carry has become something of a movement in the US. This involves civilians stoating about with a firearm on display in places of perfect safety as a political statement.

This includes even the house of God. Or political meetings.

In some case because of state laws the gun isn't even loaded. Many of these folks are not crazies its just a logical extension of their politics.

I can't really argue with this logic:
...Sure, we’re winning the fight to get shall-issue or constitutional carry all over the US, but to the general public carrying guns will never be normal until they see regular people carrying guns...
Nor would I want to live in a society were this was viewed as normal or heaven forbid actually a necessity rather than an Waltish affectation.

Firearm fearing Brits may be appalled by this idea but the right to bear arms is a very hot political issue in the US. Not just on the right, it stirs up the progressive side of the Dems mightily.

The Dems have wisely been backing away from what had become a key culture war issue. A lot of folks don't give a damn about gay marriage, abortion or health care but touch their guns and they'll be up on their hind legs. Being armed is the tangible basis of an individualistic free society for a lot of Yanks and amongst poor whites its a key reason to distrust the Dems. The US "liberal" inclination towards gun control can too easily be interpreted as class warfare downward i.e. the kind that's liable to lose you votes.

There's are practicalities. The bottom layer of US society often lives in grim situations were being armed can be a necessary comforter. Poor Black and Latino women are especially affected by violent crime and there's a .32 in many a cheap purse. Folk do defend themselves successfully often without firing a shot and when they do statistically are much less likely to shoot the wrong guy than US cops.

There's this slightly hysterical opinion piece in Salon.
...
In early August, a protester came to a raucous Tennessee congressional forum packing heat. Days later, President Obama's healthcare event in New Hampshire was marred by a protester posing for cameras with a pistol and sign reading, "It is time to water the tree of liberty" -- a reference to a Thomas Jefferson quote promising violence. And this past week, 12 armed men -- including one with an assault rifle -- not only showed off their firearms at Obama's Arizona speech, but broadcast a YouTube video threatening to "forcefully resist people imposing their will on us through the strength of the majority."

These and other similar examples are accurately summarized with the same language federal law employs to describe domestic terrorism. Generating maximum media attention, the weapons-brandishing displays are "intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population." Yes, the gun has been transformed from a sport and self-defense device into a tool of mass bullying. Like the noose in the Jim Crow South, its symbolic message is clear: If you dare engage in the democratic process, you risk bodily harm.
...

Does open carry make you look gay? I can't help thinking he should have chosen a bigger gun and a higher holster.

Now a Birther with in reach of any sharpened implement that would have me worried.
 
#3
Through the roof I should imagine, if the range safety displayed on my recent visit is anything to go by. There were people allowed to fire weapons (including pistols and automatics) with very little training or knowledge of basic safety principles. Waving the weapon around wildly whilst hitting it seems to constitute a stoppage drill in the USA.
 
#6
As the Home Office can't provide data on how many households in the UK have legally owned firearms I wouldn't put too much faith in that "research".
 
#8
IIRC, something like 40 Million Admitted gun owners in the USA (roughly 1/4 of all adults). Municipalities vary as to permiting procedures. Here in NYC, I cant even get a Home/Business or Target Permit without spending thousands of dollars and it can/will be denied at a whim. If I am a Donald Trump or Howard Stern I easily get a full carry permit from NYPD. Possession of a pellet gun is considered the same as having a Glock 17 here. 30 minutes away in Nassau county all one needs to purchase a handgun is a permit issued by the judge. For long guns a Photo ID with age and address. Fill out the forms, store calls the FBI instant check system and off you go.

As to ND's expecting Civilians who havent had military training to hold to military standards is a reach. How many Squaddies or Dogfaces have ND's every year and we are all supposedly trained? I was raised on the Maxim that the "Empty Gun shoots the Loudest" I have owned /used firearms since I was 13 and never had a ND, nor run amok on a shooting spree. But thats the way I was taught by My Father.

I own about 40 firearms held in Nassau county, and am big proponent on gun rights. Frankly bringing firearms to Political meetings or Presidential appearences is not very prudent, Not very intelligent to do, legal or not. The man with the "water the tree of liberty" sign is an idiot.
 
#9
EX_STAB said:
As the Home Office can't provide data on how many households in the UK have legally owned firearms I wouldn't put too much faith in that "research".
That would only affect the x axis, not the y.
 
#10
msr said:
EX_STAB said:
As the Home Office can't provide data on how many households in the UK have legally owned firearms I wouldn't put too much faith in that "research".
That would only affect the x axis, not the y.
It would throw a big question over the whole dataset in my view.

I'd be interested to see the statistics for knives. What would that prove? That some societies have more of a crime problem than others?

Remember, even if you believe the data, it isn't a a graph of lawful ownership of firearms vs intentional deaths from lawfully owned firearms.
 
#11
msr said:
EX_STAB said:
As the Home Office can't provide data on how many households in the UK have legally owned firearms I wouldn't put too much faith in that "research".
That would only affect the x axis, not the y.
Which would still make the entire graph unreliable. If your car only had one flat tyre, would you still drive it?
 
#12
msr said:
EX_STAB said:
As the Home Office can't provide data on how many households in the UK have legally owned firearms I wouldn't put too much faith in that "research".
That would only affect the x axis, not the y.
Thats almost certainly for weapons legally held/carried. The x axis will change dramatically if we take into account illegaly held weapons.
 
#13
duffdike said:
I always wonder what the figures for NDs and injuries caused thereby are in the US?
Link
...
Firearm injury in the United States has averaged 32,300 deaths annually between 1980 and 2006
(See Figure 1).2,3 It is the second leading cause of death from injury after motor vehicle
crashes.4 An estimated two nonfatal injuries occur for every firearm death.5,6 The 2006 age
adjusted death rate from firearm injury is 10.2/100,000 with an estimated nonfatal injury rate of
23.6.7 Firearms are involved in 68% of homicides, 52% of suicides, 43% of robberies, and 21%
of aggravated assaults.8,7 Deaths peaked in 1993 at 40,000 in the early 1990s and fell below
30,000 in 1999. Yet even at these lower levels, firearm injury represents a significant public
health impact, accounting for 6.6% of premature death in this country (Years of Potential Life
Lost (YPLL) prior to age 65).9 The fatality rate of firearm violence is more than twice the U.S.
Department of Health and Human Services’ “Healthy People” goal for the year 2010.
...
Compared to other industrialized countries, violence and firearm death rates in the United States
are disproportionately high. Of the approximately 50 upper- and middle-income countries with
available data, an estimated 115,000 firearm deaths occur annually and the U.S. contributes
about 30,000. Among industrialized nations, the U.S. firearm-related death rate is more than
twice that of the next highest country (See Figure 4). The firearm death rate for this period in the
U.S. (14.24 per 100,000) is eight times the average rate of its economic counterparts (1.76).
Of course this is tragic but let's look on the bright side. Victims in US homicide shootings tend to be adolescent males from the bottom deciles in terms of income. A lot of these are young gangbangers shot by cops, the competition or their prey. They would be out on the rob or banged up at tax payers expense otherwise so there may be a hidden upside to the grim statistics. You could think of it as a regular crop of late term post-natal abortions.

An armed society is certainly a less safe society. Some argue its also much less safe for criminals but open carry isn't really about social utility. The largely white middle class, middle aged males parading around with their Glocks hanging out are mostly harmless. This demographic does tend towards paranoia but is not exactly prominent in the homicide stats. They are more than 30 times less likely to get fatally shot than a young dude of dusky complexion. This is about dick waving individualism and a mans right to play cowboy with the real toys. There is nothing more American than that.

There's a CDC DB here.
 
#14
Goldbricker said:
...
I own about 40 firearms held in Nassau county, and am big proponent on gun rights. Frankly bringing firearms to Political meetings or Presidential appearences is not very prudent, Not very intelligent to do, legal or not. The man with the "water the tree of liberty" sign is an idiot.
A ridiculous spectacle yes, at least he had the sense to leave off "with the blood of patriots and tyrants." or perhaps he just ran out of sign.

Gun nut myself with a small arsenal. I have never felt the need to strut about on main street with a .357 ostentatiously lashed to my thigh... well not since my balls dropped anyway. It seems like a peculiarly graceless way to behave at a peaceful political gathering.
 
#15
At the reception desk in the Holiday Inn Hotel in Bulawayo in Zimbabwe there used to be a sign which read "All weapons must be cleared before being handed in for safe keeping". The lobby ceiling was absolutely riddled with bullet holes :)
 
#16
someplaces open carry makes sense when its bloody hot its hard to conceal a handgun.
The open carry zealots may well be law abiding but there acting like dicks and have almost zero support amongst gun nuts who can see apearing with guns near the sainted one and or holding inflammotary placards well doing so looks really clever and muture not. :roll:
 
#18
brighton hippy said:
someplaces open carry makes sense when its bloody hot its hard to conceal a handgun.
The open carry zealots may well be law abiding but there acting like dicks and have almost zero support amongst gun nuts who can see apearing with guns near the sainted one and or holding inflammotary placards well doing so looks really clever and muture not. :roll:
I see what you mean.
 
#19
alib said:
I see what you mean.
Why's she got her finger on the trigger? Not good drills at all.

On the other hand, I believe everybody should be able to tool themselves up to their content! Including the UK!

MsG
 
#20
As a Retired LE Officer I carry a concealed Pistol 24/7 when out and about. I never use the Open Carry law, although my State has it. IMO, taking openly displayed firearms to any sort of public meeting, especially a political one is really stupid! Recently, there was a case of an idiot showing up where a Presidential meeting was taking place. He wasn't arrested or harassed because it was an 'open carry' State. The Secret Service didn't interfere either because it was lawful; however, be assured the person wouldn't be allowed into the building where the POTUS was speaking and would be kept away from the POTUS inner perimeter.


My State (Washington) has an open carry law. I see very few if any people using open carry. Maybe because if someone reports that they feel intimidated by such a person to the police the police could interpret it as intimidation with the support of many people at the scene, particularly where tensions are high like some of the currant health care discussions/demonstrations.

QUESTION:

RCW 9.41.270 states “It shall be unlawful for any person to
carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm or any other
weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a
manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that
either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that
warrants alarm for the safety of others.” Can the men be
charged? Obviously people are looking at them a second time
when they see the guns in plain view.

DETAILED ANSWER / EXPLANATION: (provide sources / references)
The correct answer is: No

In this law, mere possession of an openly carried handgun is
not prohibited. In order to support an enforcement action
under this law the officer must be able to articulate
(describe in a convincing manner) malicious intent by the
suspect or circumstances that reasonably cause alarm to the
public. In either case, because open carry in Washington is
presumably legal, the articulation must include something
beyond mere, open possession.
 

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