Olympic shooting events venue

#1
Is it true that a purpose built venue is going to be built at Woolwich Barracks for the olympics at a cost of 20 million quid only for it to be raised to the ground on completion for a further 8 million? I'm quoting from a letter in today's Torygraph. Please tell me I'm wrong.
 
#2
Couldn't swear by the figures but yes. Couldn't have British sportsmen and women training for the following games could we? After all, target pistol shooting is illegal here now - the British team train overseas. Both are good enough reasons for us to never have got the games anyway. Contrary to the olympic charter you see.

That Seb Coe is an utter w4nker. He was president of the National Pistol Association when target pistol shooting was banned - couldn't get out fast enough so as to save his political career. Then oversaw this mess.
 
#3
exile1 said:
Is it true that a purpose built venue is going to be built at Woolwich Barracks for the olympics at a cost of 20 million quid only for it to be raised to the ground on completion for a further 8 million? I'm quoting from a letter in today's Torygraph. Please tell me I'm wrong.
Nope. Sorry. Although it may be a cunning bit of costing to allow a comparison with a permanent facility elsewhere.

The original bid was to use Bisley, but the travel times from the East of London to Pirbright were prohibitive, and that just wasn't going to be practical as far as the bid assessors were concerned.

Even a half-hour journey means an hour a day commuting between village and venue; pain in the arrse. Security issues meant that they wouldn't run a satellite village at Bisley (notwithstanding the fact that Bisley didn't even have the facilities to run a proper satellite village at the 2002 Commonwealth Games). Unless you're going to run a constant helicopter shuttle service (has to have disabled access, so better make it a Chinook :cyclopsani: ) that just wasn't going to be practical as far as the bid assessors were concerned.

I have heard that there is a proposal to create a permanent facility in East Lahndahn rather than ripping down a temporary facility, but unless it's shared with a permanent user it's going to be a white elephant - the 1996 Olympic facility at Wolf Creek closed down a couple of years ago because maintenance costs exceeded income. The tumbleweeds are already running through the Sydney venue (which was bigger and better) and Athens designed itself from the outset as a winter training venue for European teams; not sure how successful it is....

The bid team for having the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow were at one point investigating putting all of the shooting events on the Isle of Man, which just goes to show how nervous Scottish politicians can get on the subject of public funding of civilian ranges. Thankfully, it looks like it will now be on Police land, which might mean some regular income for the proposed facility.

Building a facility good enough for the Olympics, but cheap enough to be maintained by a part-time sporting organisation afterwards, is almost unheard of. Just look at the athletics venue for Manchester 2002 - it's a football stadium now, and couldn't fit a 400m track inside (they shrank it to put in more seats).
 
#4
Surely someone along the lines of SO19, London based military units and even units from the police and forces from around the country could make use of such a facility?
 
#5
Gravelbelly said:
exile1 said:
Is it true that a purpose built venue is going to be built at Woolwich Barracks for the olympics at a cost of 20 million quid only for it to be raised to the ground on completion for a further 8 million? I'm quoting from a letter in today's Torygraph. Please tell me I'm wrong.
Nope. Sorry. Although it may be a cunning bit of costing to allow a comparison with a permanent facility elsewhere.

The original bid was to use Bisley, but the travel times from the East of London to Pirbright were prohibitive, and that just wasn't going to be practical as far as the bid assessors were concerned.

Even a half-hour journey means an hour a day commuting between village and venue; pain in the arrse. Security issues meant that they wouldn't run a satellite village at Bisley (notwithstanding the fact that Bisley didn't even have the facilities to run a proper satellite village at the 2002 Commonwealth Games). Unless you're going to run a constant helicopter shuttle service (has to have disabled access, so better make it a Chinook :cyclopsani: ) that just wasn't going to be practical as far as the bid assessors were concerned.

I have heard that there is a proposal to create a permanent facility in East Lahndahn rather than ripping down a temporary facility, but unless it's shared with a permanent user it's going to be a white elephant - the 1996 Olympic facility at Wolf Creek closed down a couple of years ago because maintenance costs exceeded income. The tumbleweeds are already running through the Sydney venue (which was bigger and better) and Athens designed itself from the outset as a winter training venue for European teams; not sure how successful it is....

The bid team for having the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow were at one point investigating putting all of the shooting events on the Isle of Man, which just goes to show how nervous Scottish politicians can get on the subject of public funding of civilian ranges. Thankfully, it looks like it will now be on Police land, which might mean some regular income for the proposed facility.

Building a facility good enough for the Olympics, but cheap enough to be maintained by a part-time sporting organisation afterwards, is almost unheard of. Just look at the athletics venue for Manchester 2002 - it's a football stadium now, and couldn't fit a 400m track inside (they shrank it to put in more seats).
I won't be suprised it the venue changes to Bisley nearer the time, after all, they are holding the rowing at Eton which is the same distance from East London as Bisley.

For the investment of a few £million, they could expand the already excellent .22, air weapons and shotgun facilities to embrace pistol shooting, possibly build a hotel/conference venue as well(as was always muted for the Commonwealth Games but never came about). Money saved from the expanding budget and a far better investment to improve the facilities in the National Shooting Center IMHO.

Do they plan to transport the rowing and canoeing competitors from Stratford on a daily basis?
 
#6
I have heard it muttered that not having the NRA involved :frustrated: features quite large in the minds of some.

When the Commonwealth Games were held in Manchester, shooting events were all at Bisley because the Peoples Republic of Manchester deemed shooting sports the work of evil capitalists. Nobody seemed concerned about distance then.

And where did all the competitors stay??
 
#7
visitingrock said:
For the investment of a few £million, they could expand the already excellent .22, air weapons and shotgun facilities to embrace pistol shooting, possibly build a hotel/conference venue as well(as was always muted for the Commonwealth Games but never came about). Money saved from the expanding budget and a far better investment to improve the facilities in the National Shooting Center IMHO.
Agreed that is the ideal solution - at long last, they'd be able to demolish the old ORs' mess and build the hotel they've been planning.

Unfortunately, turning the venue into a satellite village isn't feasible; you're talking about comfy accommodation for a thousand or so (competitors, judges, coaches, support staff, etc), and it just wouldn't fit. Bisley tops out at "small groups of people" - kitchen facilities in the clubhouses just aren't up to the task. Mind you, if ATR Pirbright were on the ball, they'd bid to upgrade large parts of their accommodation to Type Z in order to act as a satellite village - maybe refurbish the pads quarters as part of the deal :)

Another problem is the airgun hall above the 50m range. Fantastic facility, except that in the rush to get it ready for the Games, they had a few problems of design that they didn't have time to fix properly (go into the airgun hall, and look at how well some of the girders fit to the vertical pillars; or look at the edge of the roof at the front, and how well it fits over its supports).

The biggest problem is the first floor; the concrete isn't thick enough / rigid enough, so that it actually feels a little like a sprung floor. If you're standing there, and someone jumps up and down, you can feel the vibration. Not good, when the bull is the size of a pinhead, and 10m away. Unfortunately, the current Chairman of the ISSF Technical Committee is aware of this problem; and I can't see it being approved as fit for an Olympics as it stands. Big bucks to repair.

All of these things are easily solved within a £28million budget, mind you, and I've love to see it done properly. Just think, the Olympics comes back to Bisley! (If you go into the NRA museum, you can find a 0.303 rifle as used in 1948 for PSK...)
 
#9
Blogg said:
I have heard it muttered that not having the NRA involved :frustrated: features quite large in the minds of some.

When the Commonwealth Games were held in Manchester, shooting events were all at Bisley because the Peoples Republic of Manchester deemed shooting sports the work of evil capitalists. Nobody seemed concerned about distance then.

And where did all the competitors stay??
It was more because the alternative was a shooting venue in Altcar, which wouldn't have provided a useful legacy for target shooting in the UK. At least building it in Bisley meant that we leapt forward to the state of the art in 10m Air and 50m rifle/pistol.

The competitors stayed in the accommodation of Guildford University. Almost all - two married ones with a three-month-old in tow stayed in the ATSC Annexe, as a satellite-satellite-village.
 
#10
Gravelbelly said:
visitingrock said:
For the investment of a few £million, they could expand the already excellent .22, air weapons and shotgun facilities to embrace pistol shooting, possibly build a hotel/conference venue as well(as was always muted for the Commonwealth Games but never came about). Money saved from the expanding budget and a far better investment to improve the facilities in the National Shooting Center IMHO.
Agreed that is the ideal solution - at long last, they'd be able to demolish the old ORs' mess and build the hotel they've been planning.

Unfortunately, turning the venue into a satellite village isn't feasible; you're talking about comfy accommodation for a thousand or so (competitors, judges, coaches, support staff, etc), and it just wouldn't fit. Bisley tops out at "small groups of people" - kitchen facilities in the clubhouses just aren't up to the task. Mind you, if ATR Pirbright were on the ball, they'd bid to upgrade large parts of their accommodation to Type Z in order to act as a satellite village - maybe refurbish the pads quarters as part of the deal :)

Another problem is the airgun hall above the 50m range. Fantastic facility, except that in the rush to get it ready for the Games, they had a few problems of design that they didn't have time to fix properly (go into the airgun hall, and look at how well some of the girders fit to the vertical pillars; or look at the edge of the roof at the front, and how well it fits over its supports).

The biggest problem is the first floor; the concrete isn't thick enough / rigid enough, so that it actually feels a little like a sprung floor. If you're standing there, and someone jumps up and down, you can feel the vibration. Not good, when the bull is the size of a pinhead, and 10m away. Unfortunately, the current Chairman of the ISSF Technical Committee is aware of this problem; and I can't see it being approved as fit for an Olympics as it stands. Big bucks to repair.

All of these things are easily solved within a £28million budget, mind you, and I've love to see it done properly. Just think, the Olympics comes back to Bisley! (If you go into the NRA museum, you can find a 0.303 rifle as used in 1948 for PSK...)
He's also fully aware that Britain is in direct breach of the Olympic charter by banning an olympic sport but that didn't seem to make much difference to the bid.
 
#11
Gravelbelly said:
It was more because the alternative was a shooting venue in Altcar, which wouldn't have provided a useful legacy for target shooting in the UK. At least building it in Bisley meant that we leapt forward to the state of the art in 10m Air and 50m rifle/pistol.

The competitors stayed in the accommodation of Guildford University. Almost all - two married ones with a three-month-old in tow stayed in the ATSC Annexe, as a satellite-satellite-village.
Still an inconvenient commute, though, wasn't it. Not good enough for Olympics.
 
B

Bottleosmoke

Guest
#12
visitingrock said:
Gravelbelly said:
exile1 said:
Is it true that a purpose built venue is going to be built at Woolwich Barracks for the olympics at a cost of 20 million quid only for it to be raised to the ground on completion for a further 8 million? I'm quoting from a letter in today's Torygraph. Please tell me I'm wrong.
Nope. Sorry. Although it may be a cunning bit of costing to allow a comparison with a permanent facility elsewhere.

The original bid was to use Bisley, but the travel times from the East of London to Pirbright were prohibitive, and that just wasn't going to be practical as far as the bid assessors were concerned.

Even a half-hour journey means an hour a day commuting between village and venue; pain in the arrse. Security issues meant that they wouldn't run a satellite village at Bisley (notwithstanding the fact that Bisley didn't even have the facilities to run a proper satellite village at the 2002 Commonwealth Games). Unless you're going to run a constant helicopter shuttle service (has to have disabled access, so better make it a Chinook :cyclopsani: ) that just wasn't going to be practical as far as the bid assessors were concerned.

I have heard that there is a proposal to create a permanent facility in East Lahndahn rather than ripping down a temporary facility, but unless it's shared with a permanent user it's going to be a white elephant - the 1996 Olympic facility at Wolf Creek closed down a couple of years ago because maintenance costs exceeded income. The tumbleweeds are already running through the Sydney venue (which was bigger and better) and Athens designed itself from the outset as a winter training venue for European teams; not sure how successful it is....

The bid team for having the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow were at one point investigating putting all of the shooting events on the Isle of Man, which just goes to show how nervous Scottish politicians can get on the subject of public funding of civilian ranges. Thankfully, it looks like it will now be on Police land, which might mean some regular income for the proposed facility.

Building a facility good enough for the Olympics, but cheap enough to be maintained by a part-time sporting organisation afterwards, is almost unheard of. Just look at the athletics venue for Manchester 2002 - it's a football stadium now, and couldn't fit a 400m track inside (they shrank it to put in more seats).
I won't be suprised it the venue changes to Bisley nearer the time, after all, they are holding the rowing at Eton which is the same distance from East London as Bisley.

For the investment of a few £million, they could expand the already excellent .22, air weapons and shotgun facilities to embrace pistol shooting, possibly build a hotel/conference venue as well(as was always muted for the Commonwealth Games but never came about). Money saved from the expanding budget and a far better investment to improve the facilities in the National Shooting Center IMHO.

Do they plan to transport the rowing and canoeing competitors from Stratford on a daily basis?

And the sailing events are being held in Weymouth....................slightly more than a half hour commute, so the reason of distance doesnt seem to hold any water...................water geddit?.................I'll get my coat.
 
#13
Let's be honest, it's a bo**cks from startex, politically driven, "pork barrel" territory ... and you are going to pay for it. I know that there are supposed "cost-benefits" to the "community" etc. etc. .... and I'm just so glad it's not my problem.

Good for Bliar if it works ... as if!!
 
#14
blue_sophist said:
Let's be honest, it's a bo**cks from startex, politically driven, "pork barrel" territory ... and you are going to pay for it. I know that there are supposed "cost-benefits" to the "community" etc. etc. .... and I'm just so glad it's not my problem.

Good for Bliar if it works ... as if!!
Surely we'll have got rid of that fecker by 2012!
 
#15
EX_STAB said:
blue_sophist said:
Let's be honest, it's a bo**cks from startex, politically driven, "pork barrel" territory ... and you are going to pay for it. I know that there are supposed "cost-benefits" to the "community" etc. etc. .... and I'm just so glad it's not my problem.

Good for Bliar if it works ... as if!!
Surely we'll have got rid of that fecker by 2012!
But the contracts and the bills won't go away ... Tony's legacy, innit!
 
#16
I heard that the Olympic shooting was been held at various locations including Peckham, Hackney, Manchester (the moss side open air venu) and Nottingham and the Rt Hon David Cameron had bagseed keeping the score. :thumright:
 
#17
blue_sophist said:
Gravelbelly said:
The competitors stayed in the accommodation of Guildford University. Almost all - two married ones with a three-month-old in tow stayed in the ATSC Annexe, as a satellite-satellite-village.
Still an inconvenient commute, though, wasn't it. Not good enough for Olympics.
Half an hour on a coach is probably "average" for village to venue journeys. Not perfect, but you work around it. The critical thing is that the transport is on time, frequent, sufficient, and comfortable.

For instance, Wolf Creek is at least half-an-hour outside Atlanta; the range in Sydney is well outside the town centre. Port Melbourne is half-an-hour from the Melbourne village. (The shotgunners in Melbourne for the 2006 Commonwealth Games were travelling over an hour each way).

As for the ATSC-Annexe-to-50m-range commute, it's about five minutes if you're pushing a pram :) :)
 
#18
barstards once looked into taking up civi shooting but theres no where local
not like olympic marksmen are muchof a threat to society are they
 
#19
Brighton hippy theres a couple of clubs in your area, Ford has a nice club though perhaps a bit far out of town.

David "two stags" Cameron shoots so if he were to come out of the closet there might be a change for pistol shooters in the UK.
 
#20
Smokeless_Coal said:
Brighton hippy theres a couple of clubs in your area, Ford has a nice club though perhaps a bit far out of town.

David "two stags" Cameron shoots so if he were to come out of the closet there might be a change for pistol shooters in the UK.
I like that!
 

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