Oliver Cromwell, Saint or Sinner?

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LE
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Oh well, OC lasted a few pages before it degenerated into a handbagging contest.

At least it proves two things;

1. The Irish question with Cromwell only as a part will always generate polemic.

2. Arrse is Arrse.

Shows what a legend he is.

Hell even Ghengis Khan doesn't get loons frothing at the mouth hundreds of years later.
 

exsniffer

Old-Salt
Bruce was Scottish, spoke Gaelic.
I know about the black Irish, they were thought to be descendants of Spanish Armada survivors, but I think DNA has disproved that theory. It's just a gene of unknown origin. It's irrelevant.

I did not say that Wikipedia was a reliable source, I did say that it was adequate. Some people seem to spend their lived altering Wikipedia to suit their agenda. If you disagree with what Wikipedia says, then you could quote a more reliable source.

Since you disputed what Wikipedia said about land ownership, I referred you to the Royal Commission report (page 1108 onwards, I believe), which says much the same. You've responded with some infantile insults. It's not a grown-up discussion.
I thought Bruce was an Essex boy
 
Bruce spoke Gaelic? Did he know that? And he was Scots Gaelic? Again, did he know? You are referring to Robert de Bruce, from that obscure Gaelic branch from Chelmsford in Normandy, the de Bruces that came across with William I, aren't you?

As for the Black Irish, the hint was, Ireland's "Moriori". Current thinking is that the Gaelic Irish were once just like the Normans, invaders, and the Black Irish are Ireland's Moriori. How's it feel, being descended from a race that's probably committed genocide?

I'm sure Wikipedia will have told you this already. Never mind, eh. If only I'd known Wiki was going to be invented, I could have saved myself many, many hundreds, thousands of hours reading real books and I'd live in a mansion bought with all the money I didn't spend on books. Books written by people a lot more cleverer than you or me but I doubt they would be as sarcastic as I am towards you.

Good to see you're so not bovvered after you established your moral superiority!:D

While other contributors to the thread have offered sources, all you've managed to come up with is 'I read in a book once', tropes and insults. Well done you.

HCL said: I'm going to shut up now before the thread gets derailed into he said-she-said-pettiness.

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As for the Black Irish, the hint was, Ireland's "Moriori". Current thinking is that the Gaelic Irish were once just like the Normans, invaders, and the Black Irish are Ireland's Moriori. How's it feel, being descended from a race that's probably committed genocide?
I've no idea, you'd do better to ask an Englishman, they have much more recent experience of that.
Isn't that you?

It may be your current thinking, but I believe recent DNA results suggests otherwise.
I'm sure Wikipedia will have told you this already. Never mind, eh. If only I'd known Wiki was going to be invented, I could have saved myself many, many hundreds, thousands of hours reading real books and I'd live in a mansion bought with all the money I didn't spend on books. Books written by people a lot more cleverer than you or me but I doubt they would be as sarcastic as I am towards you.
There's no sign of all your book learning, you don't seem to believe that the Anglo-Irish landed gentry, Cromwell's heirs and successors, even exist(ed). You have not cited a single source for your strange belief. Which is a bit bizarre, since a similar system of land management operated throughout Britain and the British Empire, since the Conqueror took Britain. All you've done is post some very puerile insults. You don't like the Irish and you don't like the unsavoury truth. I don't think your reading progressed much beyond the Beano.

The English landlords, that Cromwell imposed, shovelled as much money as they could out of Ireland for as long as they could. It was a impoverished, deprived backwater because they had made it so.

Oh well, OC lasted a few pages before it degenerated into a handbagging contest.

At least it proves two things;

1. The Irish question with Cromwell only as a part will always generate polemic.

2. Arrse is Arrse.
I was trying to confine it to OC's legacy.
 
Boll0x.

The famine was prolonged and exacerbated by your own Irish landowners and aristocracy.
I was tempted simply to keep my 'wah' shield up as it's quite clear the nonsense you are promulgating is just a big wind-up but given the number of informative up-votes you are receiving it appears there are many credulous eejits who actually think what you are stating is historical fact, so with reluctance I must step in.

The ruling Anglo-Irish/Protestant Ascendancy, call them what you will, landlord class in Ireland were "Irish" in the sense that the Afrikanners of South Africa are "African". They adopted an Irish identity merely in regard to Ireland's position within the United Kingdom ie with regard to the protestant Church of Ireland, the British Army's Irish regiments, Irish cricket or rugby teams etc. but in all other respects regarded themselves as a race apart from what we might describe, for want of a better term, as the indigenous Irish.

They filled the same role as any colonial planter class around the world, they lived a luxury life, cultivated vast estates, extracted raw agricultural commodities and provided militias for the imperial forces when the natives got uppity. The only exception being that they shared roughly the same complexion as their colonised population.

They were Irish in the same way as French or British rubber plantation owners were Vietnamese or Malay. They owed allegiance to the imperial dynasty, they lived a privileged, rent-seeking life-style, they were reactionary, resisted all attempts at national self-determination and were often vehemently opposed to any attempt by the metropolitan government to ameliorate the living standards of the natives.

To give a few examples of your so-called "Irish" landowners and aristocracy.

During the famine it was pointed out that a village in Lord Palmerston's estate in Ireland had been evicted and sent off to America. Palmerston pleaded a lack of knowledge of this incident and explained that his land agent handled these matters. Now we will pass over whether it is conceivable that a British Foreign Secretary would have been unaware that a village in his estate in Surrey had just been sent packing to America during a dreadful famine and simply ask whether anyone seriously believes that Lord Palmerston was a great "Irish" statesman?

Lord Lucan, you know the nanny basher? Well as his name suggests his family has a fine Irish estate around Lucan in County Dublin. I have yet to hear anyone refer to Lord Lucan as a famous "Irish" fugitive.

Charles Stewart Henry Vane-Tempest-Stewart, the Nazi-appeasing British Secretary of State for the Air during the 1930s, educated in Eton and Sandhurst, lived in eye-watering opulence in his beautiful mansion in Mayfair. The name of the home, Londonderry House, would be a clue to the source of his vast wealth. Are you suggesting that the "Londonderry Herr" was in fact a closet Paddy, a DeValera stooge, inserted into England to undermine imperial rule?
 
If the Irish weren't whingeing about Cromwell or potatos they'd be whingeing about something else. Maybe you could protest your extreme significance in order to change the complete indifference to a stiff ignoring, but I very much doubt even that.

Through the medium of interpretative dance maybe?

They can't top Scousers for whinging though
 

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LE
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Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
No no Scot, you know the one..... does “Pop Master” every morning .... :mrgreen:

Only for a certain demographic old top :) ....the ones who roared in unison << Showaddywaddy >> at their radios this morning , with little of the shame shown by the contestant.
 
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