Oh Good Grief

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by PartTimePongo, Oct 5, 2003.

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  1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3165394.stm

    Israel hits Palestinian 'camp' in Syria


    Israel has attacked Syrian targets before, but not inside the country
    Israeli warplanes have attacked a Palestinian "terrorist training base" inside Syria - the first Israeli attack on Syrian soil for more than 20 years.
    An Israeli army statement said the raid had targeted the Ein Saheb camp, near Damascus, which it said was used by several Palestinian militant organisations, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

    The operation came in response to Saturday's bloody suicide attack on a restaurant in the northern Israeli port Haifa, which killed 19 people.

    Syria has said it will lodge an urgent complaint with the United Nations Security Council and the UN Secretary General.

    Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, for his part, has condemned the Israeli raid as "aggression against a brother country".


    Is Israel trying to escalate regional conflict, now they have so many Spams within easy reach?
     
  2. Good for the Israelis! We're no strangers to cross border actions either so we shouldn't begrudge them their success. If Syria allows terrorists to train on its soil with the sole intention to strike at Israel, then let Israel nip it in the bud! As for the Egyptions comment, well that just goes to show that they are not in support of a peace settlement in the Middle East and do not recognise Israels right to defend herself. Then again, they haven't had a Government with balls since the pyramids were two up two downs.

    Syria won't do bugger all militarily either. They know what they are up against with the Israelis.

    Go Team Israel!!
     
  3. I agree. Lets attack America, they have been funding the IRA for years, lets nip that in the bud too. :roll:

    Israel have made a mistake there, payback always comes with a fair share of sh#t.
     
  4. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    Spot on M_S. Clever move by the red sea pedestrians, especially since of course the Syrians (Last Ba'athists on the block) got the riot act read to them pretty severely a few months ago by the Septics - they've been very quiet since, probably busily spending all the cash that suddenly came into their eonomy from the East.

    Terrorist Bas*ards are T.Bs, no matter what the shade or persuasion. Top 'em all, sez I, in my most tolerant fashion.
     
  5. Boll*cks to that! Terrorists are great when they are on our side, we just call it something else, like freedom fighters or goverment opposition/ aggravators, all much of a likeness.
     
  6. The last thing you should do is applaud this obvious act of aggression. The Israeli's don't care who they annoy, or who they attack, just as long as they have mother spam to back them up; and that is a dangerous thing.

    This whole thing could escalate and who will be the ones who will come to help the Israeli's? The spams. Who will have to cover spam arrse and be dumped on with more committments? the UK. Fck me, Iraq is a total mess and this could escalate the whole region into a war. I also think the Israeli's have had it so much their own way for so long that they are now overtly arrogant militarily. If there was a war, they would be unable to contain the civil population of Arabs inside Israel, and don't forget, 1967 was a long time ago, and they have been working under that victory ever since. The Arabs have also learnt a thing or two since. Israel is a pretty much shattered country economically now, and a war would probably bankrupt them, with the US not only unwilling, but unable, to bail them out. Nope, I think team israel may bite off more than they could chew, regardless of how many men they can call up, most of which are conscrpits.

    As to the Pals being terrorists, well, one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. What possess's a professional woman of 29 to blow herself to bits taking as many as she can with her? What does that tell you about the Pal cause? It's all very well saying they are fanatics, but they are being occupied, and in that way they are freedom fighters, especially when you consider what the Israeli's are doing inside the occupied territories.

    I think if we have a bomb, or NBC attack, in London, Manchester or Birmingham, we could pretty much put it down to the Israeli's. Personnally I don't want to see thousands of British civvies killed because we support the Israeli's; let them sort their own shyte out because they made most of it. Quite apart from the fact that Israeli terrorists killed many British servicemen to gain their own country.

    The world would be a better place if we just nuked the Israelis and Pals in one fell swoop.
     
  7. Either way, there's a more effective and sneakier way to skin that cat without overtly attacking your neighbour and alerting the world press. I thought they were supposed to be the most underhand/shady/sneaky sods in the middle east.

    Must try harder!
     
  8. Individual Americans may have /still do support the IRA, but that's more to do with them having a loose claim to Irish heritage and a complete misunderstanding of what terrorism is (until 9/11 that is). Their Government didn't support the IRA nor did it knowingly provide the IRA with training facilities, unlike certain Arab states, who allowed the IRA access to their facilities, just as they are doing with the Palestinians. I don't think that the Israelis have made any mistake here at all. If they stood back and left it to a Syrian Government which has never recovered from/or forgot the bloody nose that the Israelis gave them, then the Israelis would see more of their citizens killed/maimed by Palestinian suicide bombers/terrorists (same thing really) who had been given the use of training facilities in Syria. They trained there because Israeli Intelligence had more or less identified most (if not all) of the training camps in Palestine. Just what choice do the Israelis have? Keep the terrorist on the run or sit back and have the crap bombed out of you?

    How many times do we have to hear that they only conduct themselves in this manner because they have American Support? There are American politicians who back the Jewish lobby, I'll not offer any evidence to the contrary, but how many British politicians actively supported the IRA and up until recently Saddam Hussein?

    There's arguments for and against the recent Israeli action, but until one of you offers a more viable and realistic solution, I'll stick with my support for the most recent incident. I don't support every action they take, but then again, I don't support every action we take. As for invading America? Well, lets see if you change your tune if we are ever subjected to Islamic suicide bombers here.

    Terrorists should never be taken prisoner. They are too idealist to fit into society, damn few ever truly reform (just look at the amount of sh*t which happened in Ulster when Blair let them all out).

    I'm not professing to be right here, I'll be honest about that with you at least, but if you've got a better solution, lets hear it and moreover, let the politicians in the Middle East hear it as well..................I think they've run out of ideas.
     
  9. Hi Ma, well, I actually agree with everything you say here, but that is on the proviso that the Israeli's want peace and a peaceful solution; and I have no doubt that they would never want that, for a number of reasons.

    Firstly, it would mean relinquishing the illegally occupied areas of the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights, and I call this illegal because the UN have deemed it so in over sixty resolutions.

    Secondly, it would mean dismantling and forcibly repatriating back to Israel all the settlers; and being a PR led coalition electoral system, with Jewish fundamentalists holding casting votes, this would never happen.

    Thirdly, it would mean that peace brought an end to the massive military and economic aid it currently enjoys from the US.

    The Palestinians, and Arafat, reconciled themselves to the Israeli state four years ago, and it was then that Arafat won his Nobel prize, but just after the Israelis increased their presence in the occupied territories and began their systematic assassination campaign against the Pals. This is what started the first suicide bombers, only a few short years ago. There was a ceasefire announced by Hamas and Islamic Jihad just a few months ago, but a few days in the Israeli's bombed and killed a number of leading Hamas members, and the upshot of these killings during a ceasefire? You got it, ceasefire over. And let's not forget that the Israeli's are STILL building new settlements on Pal land, and the people in those settlements have nice green lawns with sprinklers, while across the valley Pals are being deprived and rationed of water, in their own land.

    Until such time as the Israeli's make a real and credible commitment to peace through ceding back the land they illegally occupy, I don't see this ever being resolved because when the chips are down, the Israeli's are taking land and the Pals being oppressed. The Israeli's can't have it all ways.

    I seriously believe that if we here, most of us, had been born Pals in Palland, we would be now classed as terrorists. Don't get me wrong, I don't support Palestinian terrorism, but I don't believe you need much training to don a plastique laden vest and set it off.

    Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the rest may hate the Israeli's, but because they train, or allow them to train on their land, terrorists, is no excuse. Let's face it, we and the Yanks trained and financed Osama Bin Laden, but that doesn't mean we should bomb each other.

    My answer to the middle east politicians is to move out of Palestine, build your wall on your borders, and allow the Pals to get on with their own lives, and if they try and terroris you in that case, bomb shyte out of them, but don't moan when they use any and every means against you, as you do against them. A dozen rockets fired into civvy areas are just as effective as a suicide bomber, but it doesn't catch the headlines because the Israeli's have the place sewn up and don't allow reporters in.
     
  10. Do you honestly believe though, that if the Israel did concede to move back into its 'own' territory, that the Islamic fundamentalists would stop attacking them? Personally I believe that they would continue to do so, as they would then see a weakness to be exploited and as one of their aims is to rid the Middle East of Israel and the Israelis completely, the hard liners would continue, in this belief. How else do you brain wash teenagers into strapping bombs to themselves? It's exactly what they are doing now. It's never going to go away. It's a shame that the moderates will be swinging towards hard line views, but lets face it, there's no love lost between the Jews and the Arabs.

    But I still believe in most part, the Israelis see attack as the best form of defence. Yes, innocents do get killed, but would you consider a school bus full of Israeli kids a legitimate target? I didn't think that you would somehow. If the IRA were to start strapping bombs to themselves and walking into Restaurants etc, it wouldn't be long before we hopped over the Irish border to stop them. With this current Government, probably not, but they'd soon lose their votes if the didn't take action to stop it. Dialogue only goes so far. You can't have diaologue with religious maniacs, who believe that suicide bombing gets you 21 virgins and a permanant seat at the bar in Allahs NAAFI. These individuals kill themselves as they believe in what they are doing. That belief wouldn't just disappear the minute Israel pulled back into it's own borders.
    The Israelis learned a lot of lessons in its wars with it's neighbours. One of which was too take land in order o prevent it's use by the enemy. They're still scared of attacks from their neighbours and it has a duty to protect its citizens. Fair enough, some extreme Jews have capitalised on this and built settlements, I can't argue with you there. To remove them though, whilst the attacks still continue, is seen as a sign of weakness. A weak government wouldn't survive over there. Imagine if Blair was their Prime Minister?........they'd all be in pedalos in the Med, heading for Cyprus!.

    Just how many of these Arabs however, took up with the Taliban? Just how many of them took up with Al-Queda? How many of them are now shooting at SPAMS and BRITS in Iraq? MAny of them supported the oppresive regime of Iraq, as they believe in forcing their views onto the masses, through violence, fear and intimidation. The minority cannot be allowed to hold the majority to ransom. The Palistinian terrorists may be the minority, but they aim for the spectacular each time and should be hunted down. It should be they who live in fear.

    An eye for an eye.
     
  11. How will they know unless they try it? The Jordanians and Egyptians have now completely, literally, accepted Israel as a neighbour, and I bet that same question was asked a few decades ago. You could say that Syria has also, despite Israeli claims about the camps they bombed; Syria supplies Israel with enough water that without them they wouldn't be able to function.

    They may or they may not see this as a weakness, but the Israeli's haven't given it a chance. The hardliners hold sway while ever the Israeli's continue to oppress and grab land illegally, and they will continue to hold sway against the moderates while ever Israel gives them ammunition. The hardliners brainwash teenagers into strapping bombs to themselves as a direct consequence of Israeli aggression. It seems like a vicious circle, but it's a circle that begins and ends with Israeli occupation and oppression in Palestine. Remember that suicide bombing in Israel is a new thing.

    You know I don't support that, but you've somehow missed a crucial point. The Israeli's are defending themselves against an enemy who they are illegally occupying, and in that instance we can say that they are targeting the core of Israeli support, which is innocent civvies.

    How do you stop a Palestinian terrorist committing these acts in Israel? Ask yourself what they hope to achieve. When you decide that their AIM is right, the removal of an oppressor from their lands, how can you argue about their aims? It is only the means to achieve those aims that are in doubt. That's why it is unfair to compare the IRA and the Palestinians, the Palestinians aim at it's core is right, and the IRA's isn't.

    What we are arguing, as far as I can see, is the means to an end. The Israeli's, just by being reasonable and adhering to international law, as well as a moral obligation, can remove the need for the Palestinians to have a means to an end.

    Agreed, but the NEED to have terrorists blow themselves up would disappear. Quite apart from having a far more secure internal situation with more resources available for the Israeli's. When a Palestinian sees every day the oppression of the people inside Palestine, they must feel the need to fight back. Remove that need and people, religious fanatic or not, would have a different perspective.

    Fair enough, so why build settlements, veritable oasis, on that land while the Palestinians starve and go thirsty, in full view of these oasis? Enforcing a demilitarized zone? Maybe, but the other makes hatred.

    The Israeli Government actively encourages settlements and gives huge grants to those who wish to settle in them. If having your people die in the bucketloads is seen as a strong policy, then maybe weak is stronger. I'm sorry but I don't buy this argument as Israel's stated aim is peace and security in their occupation and oppression of the Palestinians, but they are making it worse.

    Come on Ma, that's thin and another issue altogether.

    Couldn't agree more, which is why the Israeli occupation and oppression of the majority innocents in Palestine is all the more unpalatable.

    And an acre for an acre?
     
  12. Huh? I wasn't looking for a arguement, it was a throw away comment, shoot me. How ever I don't disagree with the American Goverment not knowing about training, but they knew the amount of weapons that were being handed over to the IRA. I also didn't say the Syrian Government are okay, i said that there would be payback for there actions. I stand by that comment.
     
  13. syrian goverment are not letting any media near the site.
    So i guess it was'nt a bus full of schoolkids the israelis hit :lol:
     
  14. God yeah, Syria are the next target for me. Corrupt as a monkeys rear.
     
  15. Meant to add Ma that that is like saying the IRA 'might' continue the fight across the water on the UK mainland if the British moved out and declared a united Ireland, so in that case we are staying as they would still terrorise the UK.

    Doesn't add up m8. Take away the reason, take away the inspiration, and the people themselves, with a taste for peace, then will take away the terrorists.

    The Israeli's can't be faulted for fighting terrorism positively, as we should have done years ago, but if they are the root of the problem, that's another matter.